One important position on my blog that I adopted last year was that I promote aliya, regardless of a person's individual stream of religious observance. I have Hareidi friends, feel comfortable walking around Mea Shearim, and while I don't own a black hat anymore, it certainly doesn't bother me.
There are many aspects of Hareidi, "ultra" orthodoxy that I admire.
However, the following story sent me to (hat-tip; Marcy) leaves me scratching my head.
And their punishment? They were forced them to stand up for the rest of the day and read psalms...is that the sort of punishment/negativity about tehillim that Beis Yaakov wishes to impart to their students?
There are many ways the school can educate students about their philosophy of not standing up for a siren on Yom HaShoah, but to use tehillim as a punishment and "punishing" them in the first place will only make them want to rebel, adopt a negative attitude towards tehillim, and worst of all -- they will probably stand quietly again next year.
PS: A shout-out to Annie, who's brother is sitting next to me.
Wherever I am, my blog turns towards Eretz Yisrael
There are many aspects of Hareidi, "ultra" orthodoxy that I admire.
However, the following story sent me to (hat-tip; Marcy) leaves me scratching my head.
Seven pupils at a Beit Ya'akov school in Netanya were punished after they stood up for the siren that sounded Monday in honor of Holocaust Memorial Day (Monday), Yediot Aharonot reported.These girls may have been saying tehillim quietly...but the fact that they stood up for the siren (Zionist adoption of "gentile practice") is why they were punished.
According to the report, the school principal removed the girls from their classroom and forced them to stand up for the rest of the day and read psalms.
In Haredi circles, using sirens and "moments of silence" to mark memorial holidays is considered a gentile custom and is discouraged.
Haredi rabbis often encourage their followers to recite psalms or other prayers silently during the siren.
And their punishment? They were forced them to stand up for the rest of the day and read psalms...is that the sort of punishment/negativity about tehillim that Beis Yaakov wishes to impart to their students?
There are many ways the school can educate students about their philosophy of not standing up for a siren on Yom HaShoah, but to use tehillim as a punishment and "punishing" them in the first place will only make them want to rebel, adopt a negative attitude towards tehillim, and worst of all -- they will probably stand quietly again next year.
PS: A shout-out to Annie, who's brother is sitting next to me.
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ReplyDeleteEven though we are "tzioyni", for various reasons, one of my sons goes to a school run by chareidim. While the school tries to be sensitive and not impose a hashkafa that comes between the student and the parents (most or all of the students from from national religious homes) my son was told that they will learn or say tehillim and not stand during the siren. Personally I stand, but I say tehillim. Jews do stand out of respect, and that's my intention when I stand.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with you Jameel about the inappropriateness of this punishment. More fitting might be to copy out a tshuva of the Chazon Ish or other Gadol on the topic. I'm assuming such a thing exists. (Copying text is a common punishment in chareidi schools here.)
Is that to me?
ReplyDeleteUgh, I feel really bad after reading that. Then again, it bothers me that the haredim don't stand. I think the disrespect it shows supercedes any worries that it's a "gentile" thing to do.
ReplyDeleteBut the fact that these girls were punished, and in this way...upsetting. Very upsetting.
BTW, Jameel, I've had a hard time reading your blog lately. Many times it's all squiggly and unreadable- and just now I had to try about 10 times before I was able to read your whole post. Weird.
Yet another example of how some Haredim are willfully ignorant of Judaism.
ReplyDeleteWhy do we stand for a sefer torah?
For kaddish? (ashkenazim at least)
For a rabbi?
While putting on tefilin?
Standing up is a Jewish way to show respect for someone/something.
I guess, now that non-Jews do it too, it doesn't count as real torah anymore. (see Kevod habriyot, tsa'ar ba'alei chayim, bal tshchit, etc)
kol hakavod to these girls.
ReplyDeletealan:
i think that what the haredim object to as hukot hagoyyim is the minute of silence, not the standing aspect. i hope to post about this over the next day or 2.
jameel:
this entire story drives me crazy. but i'm not sure why making them recite tehillim is a bad "punishment." i always thought that the best punishments are those that are educational, constuctive, etc. reciting tehillim is a lot better than other punishments.
also, the article was not clear. was the punishment of reciting tehillim chosen randomly, or was the point that this is the proper way to memorialize the kedoshim?
"There are many aspects of Hareidi, "ultra" orthodoxy that I admire."
ReplyDeletePlease write about that in the future as well.
Thank you
From what I've been reading about the behaviors of Haredim in books (The Unchosen by Hella Winston) and on websites (specifically, their verbal, emotional and sometimes even physical abuse of women sitting in the front of 'unofficial' so-called Haredi buses), I don't see much about the Haredim to admire.
ReplyDeletePlease prove me wrong.
What really happened in the class? Did the girls look around in surprise when the siren went off, realize no one else was going to stand, then quietly stand without trying to make a scene while the rebbi was talking? Or, maybe, they went into class with the intent of disturbing it? If they really felt that they had to stand up then they could have walked out and gone to the bathroom, called in sick, talked to the principal and explained their problem. I cant believe they were innocently standing as the article makes it sound.
ReplyDeleteMore likely no one cares anymore to see pictures of Meah Shearim during the siren so they found a way to tell the same story with a different twist.
Something to admire about Charaidim.
ReplyDeletealmost every organization that helps kids with cancer, people in hospitals, soup kitchens, lending out medical supplies are all open to everyone and run by charaidim.
I am one of a handful of people who stand up when the prayer for "Eretz Yisroel" is recited in my shul.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting that as the shul demographics have changed, so too has the name of the prayer (it used to be the "prayer for Israel"), and so too has the number of people who stand for it diminished.
The shul was founded by older european Jews. It has become more of a new Chassidish/Black Hat/BT place.
Only the handful of MOs seem to have any interest in the prayer now.
LADY-LIGHT MABEY READ OTHER BOOKS!!!
ReplyDeleteI don't believe the whole story in the first place. What did you say the source was, the "last idiot"?
ReplyDeleteThat paper always wants to put chareidim or mitnachalim in the bad light.
I have a hard time believing the story.
ReplyDeleteThis is such a fake it's incredible.
What will the left-winged anti-semitic Israeli media come up with next?
lady light:
ReplyDelete"Please prove me wrong."
on haredim and gemachs (which jameel introduced me to), see http://agmk.blogspot.com/2007/03/haredim-and-gemachs.html
I hadn't heard of this and to be honest, I haven't read other comments because I don't want any of them to influence what I have to say.
ReplyDeleteI used to babysit for a woman who when her children would misbehave she would send them on time-outs by having them sit on the potty. When the girls were almost 4 years old and not potty trained, the mother didn't understand and would get even more upset and send them to the potty.
What on earth would make anyone think that forceably punishing someone with something that's supposed to be good for us would make us turn to it in a time of need?
All I can say is "OY".
ReplyDeleteAlthough I will try to adhere to the laws of loshon hara and not believe this story, it does bring forth a point that is valid.
ReplyDeleteAs for the standing or not, to each his own. When I am in Israel on this day I do it out of respect, but that school's administration is entitled to set policies as it sees fit.
Assuming the expectation of not standing was clarified to the students in advance, it is within the rights of a teacher to punish violation of the rule.
However, as a practicing Jew I find it offensive when religious actions are used as punishment. What message are you trying to give? This happens often in religious schools worldwide. It is now strongly discouraged in public schools to give extra homework as a punishment because it gives students a negative attitude towards learning. I think they're on the right track.
lavoie would frown on tehillim as a punishment
ReplyDeleteYikes, there's more than one annie here! Annie, the shout-out was for me. I have a different blogger name (though I can't remember it! It's so long since I used it). If I sign myself annie, it's without the blogger profile link. I'll change my name a bit to differentiate from you.
ReplyDeleteHi Jameel, I got your regards from my bro. Thank you :-) Your post on Budapest was beautiful.
stillruleal I wouldnt want to go to the bathroom, stand in silence and think about kedoshim of the holocaust.
ReplyDeleteAs a chardel/charedi/yeshivish/nationalist/ person it is a must to stand out of respect for those survivors who are mourning their families. Did u ever see anyone sit or talk at a levaya, shiloshim or hakamos matzava?
The teacher who just talks through the siren will not gain the essence of respect and honor for his/her torah through that action.
There is probably more to this story than reported, I'd speak to one of the students or teachers to add the facts to the media's show.
re* Gemachs and chesed organizations, most are run, managed and volunteers come from the religious oliam (not chardei only)
Once on of my sons, in a National Religious School, was given Torah homework as a punishment. It was a group punishment to a class that was misbehaving. The Rav was in his first year as a teacher. We were very upset and let the Rav know. It helped. A little. It still happened occasionally. Just so you know it's not just the Chareidim who make mistakes. I second StillRuleAll's questions!
ReplyDeleteAnd the story about the potty is horrifying!
ReplyDeleteone of the first things i learned in teacher school was not to use anything that's a method of learning as a punishment, because it turns the students off of learning itself.
ReplyDeleteIf this story is true, these girls were likely either trying to make a point or rebel - not uncommon for the age group. I'm sure they expected to be called on the carpet for it. As an educator of young adolescents, I believe a more appropriate punishment would have been to chat with the principal/teacher about exactly why charedim don't stand. Religious schools are meant to impart a certain hashkafa, are they not? This incident could've been used to educate.
ReplyDeleteThen, if the school still insisted on punishment for a violation of the rules, perhaps some cleaning of the tables in the cafeteria or removing debris from the school grounds would've been in order.