From a post on Rafi G and DovBear on the arrest of a Burka clad woman, arrested for child abuse, molestation and terrible, almost indescribable family incest (reminiscent of the Sabbatean offshoot Frankists):The woman arrested, it turns out, was none other than
Rabbanit Bruriah keren,** herself. The founder and leader of the group. So the group is not just an eccentric group with on sicko as a member. the group is rotten from the core.
BTW, this information has been confirmed by my source - he confirmed it with her neighbors and with the police.
So now that she has been arrested and her evil exposed, hopefully that will be the demise of this evil group of people.
Not only that, but her son in law is Binyamin Friedman - the leader of the kannoim in RBS B that have been the source of all the violence in the past. The question is if the expose revealing all that she has done will now put a damper on Friedman's activities, and the support he has had from the local Rabbonim of the Eidah and of the even more extreme Rabbonim...
A 54-year-old mother of 12 is under arrest for allegedly severely abusing her children, police said Tuesday.
The woman who allegedly abused her children arrives in court on Tuesday.Photo: Channel 2 The Beit Shemesh resident is also suspected of failing to report multiple
cases of incest among her children. She was remanded for six days by the
Jerusalem Magistrate's Court on Tuesday....It took police two hours to gain entry to the home, with the intervention of local rabbis. Officers and social workers soon uncovered brutal physical abuse of several of the children, including whippings with both belts and electric cables, according to a police officer's court testimony. The mother is also suspected of breaking one daughter's nose with a rolling pin, leaving her children to sleep outside in a locked shed when they came home late, and preventing them from receiving medical treatment for their injuries. The mother said it was all part of their "education," according to court documents....When the children of the family were treated by social workers, it emerged that the teenagers had committed incest with each other, over a long period of time, the police officer said. The teenage boy who was removed from the house told social workers that he had had sexual relations with his 18-year-old sister, and that he had told his parents and his rabbis, and that the latter told him not to tell anybody else.
That photo you posted is completely pritzusdik. You can totally see her eyes, and even that she's wearing (gasp) makeup! The real frum burka ladies would never go around exposed like that...
ReplyDelete1. Why tramp? That insult does not fit any of the vices of which she is accused.
ReplyDelete2. We all have our lunatic fringes, and you would be rightly offended if someone suggested that it is only a matter of time before your lunatic fringe goes mainstream.
Ironi: Why tramp? Because "burka babe" didn't work, and child abuser or sex molestor didn't seem like the the exact message. Tramp isn't perfect either...zeh mah sheyesh.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean, we all have our lunatic fringes? How would I be rightly offended by suggesting *my* lunatic fringe goes mainstream? Are you implying that lunatics want their fringes to remain away from the mainstream? If anything, the lunatic fringes WANT their groups to go mainstream!
ironi burgani: We all have our lunatic fringes...
ReplyDeleteIndeed. And the "burka women" are part of our lunatic fringe, long with their violent hooligan neighbors/relatives.
ironi burgani: ...and you would be rightly offended if someone suggested that it is only a matter of time before your lunatic fringe goes mainstream.
What are you talking about? That's exactly what Jameed did suggest! He said that it may only be a matter of time until this lunatic fringe of ours goes mainstream. Why should Jameel be "rightly offended" by his own suggestion?
You don't make any sense.
So I'm guessing this isn't one of those Purim posts.
ReplyDeleteI read about it but didn't realize she was non other than that rebbetzin. Horrific!
ReplyDeleteNo need for a sample, here's some real pictures of the burka ladies (at least one of them...
ReplyDeleteHere.
Wow--it was bad, and now it is worse.
ReplyDeleteThose poor kids--how are they ever going to get their lives back? A nutcase, abusive mom...AND everyone knows their dirty laundry--kind of the kiss of death in a haredi community, no? I really hope they make it through okay. Is the rest of the family whacked, or do they have people who are going to look out for them?
Oy, just shaking my head.
ReplyDelete"he had told his parents and his rabbis, and that the latter told him not to tell anybody else."
ReplyDeletethank you jameel or restoring me faith in the rabbinic establishment
The teenage boy who was removed from the house told social workers that he had had sexual relations with his 18-year-old sister, and that he had told his parents and his rabbis, and that the latter told him not to tell anybody else.
ReplyDeleteThis is getting ridiculous. If you repeat a lie enough times, people actually believe it.
I can believe that the Rabbi told him not to tell the police, but to say that the Rabbi told him not to tell anybody else (implying that nothing should be done about this) is insane.
You guys should meet some Haredi Rabbis. They are mean nasty people, devilspawn, who walk around and act as dementors - giving the kiss of death to anyone with a bit of happiness. They also bury virgins alive as an offering to the Satan (with the virgin dressed from head to toe in burkas), and slit the throats of young children to bake matzas with their blood.
Oh whoops! I exaggerated on the last one - they don't use the blood in the matzos - they just slit the throats of young children for fun.
Jameel,
ReplyDeleteThe evil was exposed! the VEIL was exposed ;)
anonymous: Which lie disturbs you the most? The physical evidence of the children who were hospitalized? (broken jaw, etc.)
ReplyDeleteWhere exactly do you see this posting lambasting Hareidi Rabbis? The posting is about the danger of the violence from the luantic fringe in Ramat Beit Shemesh Bet (do you understand the word "fringe" -- the violence is being committed by a tiny minority of people, where do you see that as a condemnation of Chareidi Rabbis?!)
Do you think there is no violence in RBS Bet? Do you have a clue as to what's going on there? The point of this post was the CONNECTION between the Burka Cult leader (who is under arrest by the police for sever child abuse, neglect, and allowing family incest), and her SON IN LAW, a violent, fanatical, lunatic who attacks people in Ramat Beit Shemesh.
Sweeping these issues under the rug is the worst thing possible for Chareid Judaism.
Which lie disturbs you the most? The physical evidence of the children who were hospitalized? (broken jaw, etc.)
ReplyDeleteWhat physical evidence? When I see it in a court transcript I will believe it. Until then, talk of a 'broken jaw' is hearesay. Last I heard, she had a broken nose. Tomorrow it might just become severe burns throughout her body due to cigarette burns from her mother which led to a massive infection leading to braindeath, and now the fight is whether they should donate the organs.
Come on!
I agree with you fully that if these accusations are true, she should be severely punished. However, I feel that there has been a LOT of exaggeration in this story.
Jameel - a serious question:
Do you really belive that a Haredi Rabbi (a real Rabbi, not someone that a hiloni reporter decided to call Rabbi) would tell a child to shush up about incestuous relations? Sure - he would try to keep it quiet and try to deal with it inside the community, but to simply ignore it? No way.
As you yourself write - these people are among the most extreme in the Chareidi community - yet you accept the fact that they accepted incest? That's very unlikely.
I can think of a few possibilities:
1) The story was fabricated by the child/police/media
2) The story is true, and the Rabbi did not believe the child
3) The story is true and the Rabbi actively worked from within the Haredi community to stop the incest.
Possibility #4 - that the Rabbi knew it was true, yet purposely ignored it (as insinuated by the media) is patently false and ridiculous.
It sounds like a story that Vicky Polin would say (on Oprah, if I recall correctly).
I would only add, the Israeli news is well known for serious exaturation and hanging people with completely circumstantial evidence.
ReplyDeleteAnon: Do you really belive that a Haredi Rabbi (a real Rabbi, not someone that a hiloni reporter decided to call Rabbi) would tell a child to shush up about incestuous relations? Sure - he would try to keep it quiet and try to deal with it inside the community, but to simply ignore it? No way.
ReplyDeleteI assume you are completely ignoring the case of Yehuda Kolko and the Rabbis who specifically said, "dont do anything".
Regarding this specific case; There *must* be some Chareidi Rabbi who is supporting the awful violence in Ramat Bet Shemesh Bet, dont you think? Even one. It woudlnt surprise if the same one would also give the same sort of answer about hushing up an incestuous relationship.
And now, a question for you: What motive does the Israeli police AND the beit shemesh welfare dept have in trashing this woman's repuation, her husband, her family, her 28 year old son (arrested today on suspect of incest as well)?
Why would the media fabricate this story? Why would the child?
Do you honestly think this is one huge conspiracy because some lady wears a Burka?
I believe that the women is abusive and her family is incestuous.
ReplyDeleteHowever, she is not Chareidi. My Chareidi sister in RBS told my family a while back that there is a cult in RBS that wears burkas. They are not accepted by the Chareidi community there. They are not mainstream.
I think the fear is that people will think this sicko is representative of Chareidim. Like many secular Israelis think that all settlers are like Boruch Goldstein or Yigal Amir. (I know- Amir didn't kill Rabin; the Shin Bet did. However, society thinks he did and he definetly tried to murder Rabin.)
I don't believe that any legitimate Rabbi would ignore incest. It is abhorrent. I can believe that the media would exaggerate some details. They do so all the time against "settlers." You can attest to that, Jameel.
I still haven't figured out how to respond to the information that she is related to a leader of the kanoiim in RBS B. Is that true? I don't think I am allowed to halachically accept that until I know it is 100% true.
anon 6:29
ReplyDeleteWhy go to the press at all in this case (the burka wacko)? Is it the job of the police to be entertainers? I think that they have ulterior motives, and that they truly hate charedim.
Lets get something straight. First of all, would like to clarify (yet again) that I have nothing at all against the Chareidim of Ramat Beit Shemesh IN THE SLIGHTEST. I do have a problem with Kanno'i violence which affects the residents of Ramat Beit Shemesh and Beit Shemesh.
I don't think anyone honestly believes the Burka lady is representative of Chareid society, or that any rabbi connected to the Burka cult is mainstream. I wrote that clearly that I believe it's a lunatic fringe.
That said, let's go with your premise that the Police despise the chareidim (which I won't even deny). With all the violence in RBS, why didn't the police LEGITIMATELY go to RBS bet and bash heads? Restore Order? Arrest the lunatics THAT DESERVE TO SIT IN JAIL? The best the police could come up with was going after an "innocent" burka lady? It doesn't make sense.
SoontobeinIsrael: If you read what I wrote in my posting, I clearly said they are NOT mainstream, but a lunatic fringe. My worry is that they COULD become mainstream! Why is it so difficult to believe the Burka lady is the mother in law of the Kannoim leader in RBS Bet? Ask Rafi G (from lifeinisrael.blogspot.com) -- he lives in RBS.
That said, let's go with your premise that the Police despise the chareidim (which I won't even deny). With all the violence in RBS, why didn't the police LEGITIMATELY go to RBS bet and bash heads? Restore Order? Arrest the lunatics THAT DESERVE TO SIT IN JAIL? The best the police could come up with was going after an "innocent" burka lady? It doesn't make sense.
ReplyDeleteI want to be clear on this: The police did not frame the lady. This is simply a pot of gold that fell into their laps, and they are doing their best to make the most of it.
If they were simply doing their job, they would shut the hell up until after the investigation is complete! There has been no indictment! The lady has been arrested during the investigation. Her husband was arrested for one day, and tomorrow will be free on house arrest.
If you are trying to investigate something, you gather the facts as quietly as possible, so that people don't tamper with witnesses or bother the investigation. Here in Israel, the police will run out to the press as soon as possible, making statements such as:
"This is the worst abuse that I have seen in my life"
and the like. Based on the news reports, there are major discrepencies between the social workers and the police, which is leading me to be more and more doubtful of all the grandiose claims of the police.
Let the investigation go on, and let the truth come out in a trial. (Assuming that we can get to the truth in Israel)
If they were simply doing their job, they would shut the hell up until after the investigation is complete!
ReplyDeleteUnfotuantely, Israel's media jumps on top of anyone arrested (left, right, center, media personality, religious, chareidi or politician) -- the concept of "innocent till proven guilty" does not exist.
That said, having followed the burka cult since it's inception, I blog it. The main point of my post was the connection between the burka lady and her son in law, the head kanno'i that terrorizes ramat beit shemesh.
Unfotuantely, Israel's media jumps on top of anyone arrested (left, right, center, media personality, religious, chareidi or politician) -- the concept of "innocent till proven guilty" does not exist.
ReplyDeleteThat said, having followed the burka cult since it's inception, I blog it. The main point of my post was the connection between the burka lady and her son in law, the head kanno'i that terrorizes ramat beit shemesh.
As such, I would suggest that you go a step above everyone else, and put a disclaimer at the top of the post as follows:
Note: As of 3/27/2008, the acts described below are only accusations - no indictment has been filed, nor has anyone been found guilty. Let's keep that in mind before reaching conclusions.
From the quality of your posts in the past, I do think that you will put up some type of disclaimer, even if it is not exactly what I wrote.
{Disclaimer: I still feel that the burka wearers are nuts and that the kannoim need to be stoned in return - but - they should not be falsely accused of horrifying acts if the accusations are indeed untrue.}
Im such a psuhover to do the right thing :)
ReplyDelete(see bottom of the post)
"Is the lunatic fringe of Chareidi, Ultra-Orthodox society really approaching that of Islamic Fundamentalism? What's next? Honor Killings of women who aren't dressed modestly enough? Is it only a matter of time before this lunatic fringe goes mainstream? Ramat Saudi Arabia Bet?"
ReplyDeleteFor the most part, probably not, if that's any comfort. But Islamic fundamentalism isn't some special thing that Islam cooked up, and the rest of us are immune to. Look at breakaway rogue Mormon groups in the U.S. Crazy as heck.
All it takes is charismatic leaders, an obsession with sexual sin, a closed family system which rejects outside influence, and a firm belief that God likes you and not THEM.
Yeah. People could go there. The big advantage that the haredi community has in avoiding going is that potential nutjobs are closely surrounded by sane haredim--not living up in the hills for the most part--and that haredi communities are largely located in stable democracies with social services and stern child abuse laws. That helps.
I find it distressing that people can read an article like this and, instead of thinking of the children who have suffered so much, immediately accuse the report of Haredi-bashing. Talk about focusing one's attention in the wrong place!
ReplyDeleteThe only thing that this behavior of circling the wagons and issuing denials, in whatever form, will accomplish is forcing other children in similar situations to suffer more, and for longer periods of time.
Whatever happened to the Jewish ideal of u-viarta et ha-ra mi-kirbekha (you shall cleanse the evil from among you)? We need to expose this evil wherever we find it, call it by name and bring the perpetrators to justice.
Another thing: in my opinion, those who engage in these knee-jerk denials are committing a form of avodah zarah: sacrificing real, flesh-and-blood human beings to an idea -- entirely false, as it happens -- that a given community is perfect and that nothing bad ever happens there. Abuse occurs in every community, from the most secular to the most observant. No place is immune.
Tonight's news, if I understood it correctly, seem to indicate that the "abuse" was in permitting one or more of the children to engage in sexual activity with other siblings and I think I heard that the 28 year old son arrested was perhaps mentally deficient. The father, arrested today upon arrival back in Israel, is claimed to have been aware of the sexual crimes since he moved into that son's bedroom to be more supervisory, to no avail though. It seems to be a bit more complicated. I will admit, though, that everytime they show the clip of the Rebbitzen walking down the hall and tripping over her burkha, I can't help be grin.
ReplyDeleteThank you Rahel--well said. The real victims here are the children--not the hareidim and not the parents. And yes, it is indicative of a real canker that is festering in the community when the concerns for the children's well being are not front and center.
ReplyDelete...I can't help but grin.
ReplyDeleteYou people have really missed the point.
ReplyDeleteYou're on a witch hunt.
You smell the blood.
All that I'm asking is that you refrain from passing judgment until this is cleared up, as there are conflicting statements as to what happened, and it is NOT clear that any children were abused to the extent that the news reports claim that they were.
Call it circling the wagons.
Call it issuing denials.
I prefer to refer to it as "Innocent until proven Guilty". Can someone please explain to me why that does not pertain in this case?
ironi burgani: "2. We all have our lunatic fringes, and you would be rightly offended if someone suggested that it is only a matter of time before your lunatic fringe goes mainstream."
ReplyDeleteOf course I would. I value my lunatic fringe keepin' it real and not bein' sellouts yo.
akive: "I would only add, the Israeli news is well known for serious exaturation and hanging people with completely circumstantial evidence."
So they're all American ex-pats is what you're saying...
balabusta in blue jeans: "All it takes is charismatic leaders, an obsession with sexual sin, a closed family system which rejects outside influence, and a firm belief that God likes you and not THEM."
Statement most approaching 100% accuracy ever.
Anyhow given that, it's a good thing latent psychic powers aren't more common because that household seems eerily reminiscent of Carrie.
With regard to burqas... I would not mind them AT ALL... IF AND ONLY IF it was a fashion statement as well as chastity/purity statement AND totally up to the women. But that's the fearful thing. We know that if the more conservative women get this going as a matter of standard practice, it becomes tradition, and once that happens, we'll get to the point where no one will care it's solely self-invented and not from Torah or even the rabbinical op-ed section.
And you just know the colorful blue would have to go and they'd be all black and that's boring; though it does occur that it might become a fad here among goth punk kids at the mall.
Look what the spread of once fringe Islamic conservatism has done to the eastern fashions. What ever happened to the decoration, the colors, the fine cloths... It's anti-artistic and soul-crushing. In the name of what? Blaming men who can't keep their pants up?
I swear this world is so seriously messed up...
I hope relatives of her followers are getting their relatives psychological help.
ReplyDelete12:21 Son of alleged Beit Shemesh child abusers admits to having sex with sister (Haaretz)
ReplyDeleteYisroel - you're smiling too much at this. Too much of us versus them.
ReplyDeleteSorry, anonocharedi-
ReplyDeleteIt's extremely rare that parents who are arrested for severe child abuse get completely exonerated and the stories are completely made up. This isn't tax evasion or some kind of "victimless crime". If it's bad enough that the police are involved, the benefit of the doubt rests with the children, not the mom, crazy or not. You might not like it, but that's the way it is.
Should we also be reserving judgment on the American charedi couple from Shaarei Chesed as well, with two kids in the hospital? Are they also innocent until proven guilty? Sorry, pal, not on your life. Not when two kids are in the hospital and the parents are pointing fingers at each other and all the mother can do on TV is stick her head in her tehillim. Pathetic.
horrible
ReplyDeleteeveryone posting here should get a copy of the chofetz chaim's 'lesson a day' on loshon hara.
ReplyDeleteand read it.
and then think very carefully about how Hashem would want us to react in this situation.
loshon hora ONLY pertains to things that are true. if the information is false, then it's slander - which is an even more serious offense.
what was the constructive purpose of posting all this stuff?
Anonymous @ 12:18 PM: what was the constructive purpose of posting all this stuff?
ReplyDeleteI believe that there are some very important things one can, and should, learn from this case. For some examples, see this post by Rafi G.
lurker
ReplyDeleteall of these constructive debates could have occurred minus the loshon hora.
there is no halachic problem with constructive debate. there is an enormous halachic problem with loshon hora.
Anonymous who ironically keeps banging on about Loshon Hora:
ReplyDeleteIn an earlier post YOU slandered Vicki Polin, who is the first to admit she's a little crazy but shockingly enough has yet to have been wrong when she has pointed the finger at an abusive Rabbi. What would you prefer, that the violence and abuse continues unfettered? Do you have children? Do you care?
Don't lecture on innocent until proven guilty: Via this post, Jameel has raised an important issue- whatever the outcome of the case involving this woman, people like you need to accept that abuse goes on in the Charedi community just as much as in any other community, and not declare all accusations to be witch-hunting.
http://ccrw.1202.org.il/English
In an earlier post YOU slandered Vicki Polin, who is the first to admit she's a little crazy but shockingly enough has yet to have been wrong when she has pointed the finger at an abusive Rabbi.
ReplyDeleteFirstly, get your people right. I am anonymous - the second guy who started talking about Lashon Hora is not me. I was not talking on a religious level - I was referring to a level of decency that is needed in any liberal and democratic society - the theory that one is innocent until proven guilty. Of course, the question of 'proof' is yours to decide - should you simply believe Israeli press reports - that is your prerogative, although I would question your intelligence level.
Secondly, Vicki Polin has falsely accused people. Offhand, the story of the Rabbi of Ariel comes to mind - he was set up - arrested for rape. See here:
http://www.theawarenesscenter.org/Nager_Shalom.html
Of course, when the Rabbi was let go, and the case was dropped due to the woman who claimed the rape having a history of claiming rape against many other people, no one bothered reporting it. I managed to find it on one site:
http://www.nfc.co.il/Archive/003-D-7863-00.html?tag=23-28-48
Vicki Polin still chooses to defame this Rabbi (who has since died, if I recall correctly), due to claims made by one person, and an anti-religious media and police force. The police claimed that they had proof and additional rape victims - which never materialized, but for some reason that was not reported.
So, Mr. Eyes Open, do you have enough guts to apologize to me for your incorrect comments in which you accused me of slandering Vicki Polin?
If you read the article in Hebrew, you will see that police claimed that they had recordings of the Rabbi (presumably making harassing phone calls to the woman).
ReplyDeleteObviously, there were no phone calls.
Until you have met the Israeli police, any theories of them upholding truth are simply wrong.
Once you have met the Israeli police, you no longer have such theories :-)
I'd like to bring up a few things that no one so far has even mentioned.
ReplyDeleteHow did this woman give birth under so many layers? How did you make EYE-CONTACT with the newborns, which is crucial to the emotional development of babies?
How did she (breast) feed them? Also a key ingredient in bonding with your offspring.
How can you discipline children and guide them on the proper path if you never look INTO THEIR EYES?
How can a mother(?) raise children without flesh contact with her children, soothing them, caressing them.
The eyes are the window to the soul. Torah and Kaballah teach this. The entire situation is deficient and questionable. There are so many details that are being ignored here, and I think they are all representative of a deficient mind.
Even (most) Muslim women expose their eyes and inside the home uncover their faces and perhaps do not wear the burqa inside either. So the children are able to form a NORMAL growing up.
There are too many details being ignored.
I think that is why the Social Services were called in to assess and make a determination to the extent of the damage. To say there was no DEPRIVATION is ignoring NORMALCY.
AND because the frum woman does not cover herself in this fashion when she leaves the home, these women who followed her are in effect CUTTING THEMSELVES OFF from the klal, and this is frowned upon.
Whether and to what extent the truth is exposed, no one can deny that the exposure will act as a deterrent to frumka wannabees.
The Analyzer
The analyzer:
ReplyDeletedon't think anyone is saying that this lady is normal. She's a kooky wacko.
However, that is not the question that is currently being dealt with. The question is if she physically abused them (eg broke her daughters nose with a rolling pin) and aided incestuous relations.
There are many people here who are taking for granted that the ISraeli Police tells the truth - they DO NOT! They cannot be trusted, and as such, this lady is INNOCENT until proven otherwise.
I'm hearing that she will be released in the next few days - her son who supposedly had sex with his 8 year old sister has already been released - from both jail and from house arrest
She's been charged with tying up her kids and beating them.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/970647.html
And Akiva (sorry for being late - stabbings at Shiloh Junction and all that), when I worked at Shaare Zedek Hospital in 1971 or 72, I was at Public Relations and at the time, the autopsy issue was in the news. A rumor spread that we were about to cut up a cadaver on our grounds and we were invaded by about 100 Hareidim. I stood on the side with a camera and fastest than you can say Moshe Rabeinu, I was surrounded by 20 of them, you know, the observant, black-coated, white-shirted, black-hatted variety. They lowered their hats over their faces and began kicking me. It hurt.
ReplyDeleteSo, when I see a burkha-babe and think that there are some people who presume that someone like that is moral, ethical and even religious because of how they look, I know they needn't take things for granted. And so, it's not a matter of "us" vs. "them" but me vs. the badder-than-I.
And also, think about the kids not about Ultra-Orthodox Jewry.
i admire this culture because they have a lot of interesting things that we do not know, for example, nobody knows why women are wearing clothes like the pictures, there are interesting thing that is good to know.
ReplyDelete