I love getting phone calls from survey companies in Israel. Their questions usually render them pretty transparent regarding what information they are trying to find out. And I like to play a game where I try to figure out who sent them to ask questions before they start asking the company specific questions halfway through.
And you can learn trends (and political balloons) that are kicking off in Israeli society from these surveys.
So last night I get a call asking me about Lulavim. They had a trick question in there to see if the person answering is really religious and knows about Lulavim - I found that amusing.
But what stumped me was when they asked me what type of Dati I am:
Are you "Dati-Torani", "Dati-Emuni", or "Dati-Chareidi"?
I can't even classify what kind of Orthodox I am in English, I just see myself as "Shomer Torah and Mitzvot". And now they want me to define myself in neo-Israeli terms!
So now I'm pretty sure I'm not the last one (or am I?) on their list, but I had absolutely no clue what they meant by the first two. And besides, I am pretty sure I wouldn't fit into any of those 3 boxes.
But what I learned from the survey is that the Orthodox community is apparently breaking up (or being divided up) into 3 camps. Something I wouldn't have known before the Survey.
I wonder how that will pan out.
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From Left to Right:
ReplyDeleteDati Moderni
Dati Srugi
Dati Emuni
Dati Torani
Dati Chardali
Dati Chareidi
You know, most normal people tell survey-takers "Sorry, Ima's not home" and hang up on them.
ReplyDeleteWhat's Dati emuni? Like, you believe and you're into it but you not necessarily medakdek on everything?
I've only heard of "Dati-Lite" and Chafifnikim, but I've never seen such a granular breakdown of the D'L camp.
Hi Abbi -
ReplyDeleteI'll add those to my list :-)
Here are some over-generalizations/stereotypes to explain -- please dont take this too seriously. Maybe I should edit it and turn it into a post of its own?
Dati Lite: Sometimes wears a kippa. And its tiny. Sometimes Goes to shul on Shabbat. Might put on tefillin during the week. Usually eats at places with a Teuda. Eats at places that are open on shabbat without a teuda, if he/she knows the owner/waiter/chef who said that everything's kosher. Sometimes waits between eating bisari and chalavi.
Dati Moderni: Puts on tefillin almost daily. Always goes to shul on Shabbat. Kippa size ranges. Might have gone to a mechina before the army. Nati from Srugim?
Dati Srugi: Studied at Mechina or Hesder Yeshiva. Davens daily. Sometimes with a minyan.
Dati Emuni: Moshe Feiglin defines himself this way. Will need to ask him for a stereotyped definition :-)
Dati Torani: Went to a yeshivat hesder. Learns daily. Usually doesn't have a TV at home and if they do, they dont have TV reception and only watch DVDs. Might watch Srugim but won't admit it to their neighbors.
Dati Chardali: Went to yeshivat hesder for more than 5 years and/or did merkaz hesder. Kids might not go to the army for a few years. Kids get married early. No TV at home. Complains that Srugim mis-portrays the Dati world.
Dati Chareidi: Or simply Chareidi. Didn't go to the army. Daughters wont do Sherut Leumi. Doesnt watch srugim.
Might watch Srugim but won't admit it to their neighbors.
ReplyDeleteLOL!!
I always answer that I'm a "Yehudi", and let them stew on that for a while... particularly when the questioner wants to know if I'm Ashkenazi or Sepharadi.
ReplyDeleteDati Emuni: Moshe Feiglin defines himself this way. Will need to ask him for a stereotyped definition :-)
ReplyDeleteWhenever I ask Manhigut people if their movement is religious, they answer that it's "emuni". Presumably they mean by this that it's religious but they want masorati people to vote for them also. In short, just a political term.
To me, "dati torani" is much better defined by attitudes like boy/girl separation in schools/youth movements than by Srugim. I'm not even sure that "won't admit to watching Srugim" is to the left of "complains that Srugim mis-portrays the Dati world". I would have thought the opposite.
Let's see ... I'm a Maimonidean rationalist who follows Rabbi S. R. Hirsch's philosophy, and who is also tremendously inspired by the Judeo-Spanish Sephardim (of Turkey, the Balkans, Holland, and Italy). Bits and pieces of Rav Kook's thought permeate my views. Politically, I'm a libertarian who wants a democratic theocracy in Israel, in which halakhah is instituted as the law by a federal constitutional democratic-republic government, based on John Locke and the 16th-18th-century Calvinist/Puritan political thinkers. (In other words, a theocratic Israel would be structured like the United States, based on the exact same political sources. I readily admit that Moshe Feiglin inspired my views.)
ReplyDeleteSo how should I answer the survey?
LOL!
ReplyDeleteBut I would differentiate between Dati Chareidi and Chareidi:
Chareidi - Wears a black hat. Sons won't go to the army, and daughters won't do sherut leumi. Acts like he's never even heard of "Srugim" or any other TV show for that matter.
Dati Chareidi - Wears a black hat. Sons won't go to the army, and daughters won't do sherut leumi. Acts like he's never even heard of "Srugim" or any other TV show for that matter. Insists that he's definitely not chareidi.
:-)
Mike: You're definitly Emuni!
ReplyDelete:-)
Shlomo: To me, "dati torani" is much better defined by attitudes like boy/girl separation in schools/youth movements than by Srugim. I'm not even sure that "won't admit to watching Srugim" is to the left of "complains that Srugim mis-portrays the Dati world". I would have thought the opposite.
The reason its to the left, is because Chardalim hold by Rav Aviner -- who specifically complains about Srugim's alleged misportrayal AND holds its assur to watch srugim in the first place.
Some examples: Places like Peduel and Nof Ayalon are "Torani".
Examples of Chardali: Beit El Bet, Har Bracha.
MRS S.: LOL! :-)
ReplyDeleteBTW: there's also a granularity to settlers!
Leftists who live in the yishuvim; vote meretz. Hope to get evicted with lots of reparations. Example: Benny Raz.
Leftists who live in the yishuvim; vote meretz. Live in denial that they are "over the green line" -- even if they are on the pre-67 side of the security wall. Examples include Har Adar, Alfei Menashe.
Politically agnostic who live in yishuvim, enjoy the quality of life and scenery. Examples: Those who used to live in Alei Sinai in Gaza....or those from Ganim/Kadim from the Northern Shomron, which were destroyed in the "Disengagement"
Center-Left Labor voter. Doesn't understand how he used to be part of the consensus when he moved to the Jordan Valley kibbutz and is now branded a radical for living in "occupied palestine". Refuses to admit he's a settler. Examples: Northern Dead Sea Kibbutzim
Center-right Likud voter. Doesn't understand how he used to be part of the consensus and is now branded a radical for living in "occupied palestine". Has no problem being called a settler. Votes Likud. Doesn't think the Disengagement was such a bad thing.
more to come...
Not precisely happy to hear that Israel has been infected with this narishkeit also but you still have a way to catch up to the US, where it's clear that soon every Jew will be practicing his/her own division of Judaism. One shidduch questionaire has 31, yes 31 different designations to describe religious practice. Check off more than one and it is quite possible to be an OOT centrist modern Orthodox machmir with libertarian left of center yeshivish practices while still maintaining some connection to centrist non-Brooklyn chassidishe minhagim but not chabad. And that just covers you for whether or not you have the Internet.
ReplyDeleteProfK: Look at the bright side -- the Takana forum manages to span the entire spectrum of the "dati" community.
ReplyDeleteI dont know of any comparable forum in the US with such heterogeneity.
I usually just tell them that I don't know, but if they want, I could tell them how my friends would classify me. That usually satisfies the person on the phone since he didn't make up the question and just has to fill in a box. (I'm not a major fan of giving people a too hard a time when they're trying to earn an honest living.)
ReplyDeleteIn any case, it's probably the most accurate way of pigeonholing yourself if you had to.
i've never even had anyone ask, but thanks for all the tips. maybe if it happens, my head will be less likely to explode.
ReplyDeletewhat happened to "dati leumi"? i used to be fairly satisfied with that.
I usually get asked whether I'm dati, hiloni or masorti. Even this sort of question stumps me, since I feel an affinity for all three categories but don't really belong to any of them. Since I always want to make it easy for the person on the other end I pick one at random based on the mood I'm currently in. And it doesn't help that the conservative movement (which I have no sympathy for) decided to call themselves masorti in Israel. On paper questionnaires I like to draw a big circle around all the available religion options. Not because I'm trying to be a smartass but because that's how I really feel.
ReplyDeleteWhat about the Charifnikim!?
ReplyDeleteCan't go near them!
:-)
J. Becker: Dati Leumi used to be fine...till Chardalism appeared...that changed everything.
ReplyDeleteAlex: I love your answer -- circling them all :)
ReplyDeleteNeshama: Chafifnikim is Dati-Light.
Jameel: she asked about Charifnikim... people who eat too much schug!
ReplyDelete:)
I think these divisions is half the reason we have a "shidduch crisis"
My husband classifies as litvishe charedi, mildly anti-zionist (certainly anti-government) but works and watches movies...
I classify as conservadox, Zionist.
yet... the friend who set us up decided "Shomer Kashrut and Shabbat and they both juggle - it'll probably work." 4 years in, and so far, so good. It gives us what to fight over ;)
late to the party but I'm pretty sure that Chardal and Dat-Charedi are the same thing.
ReplyDeleteChardal stands for Charedi Dati Lemui.
I thought Dati was short for Dati Leumi