tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post114844922631103205..comments2024-03-10T08:13:34.023+02:00Comments on The Muqata: Rabbinical Certification of Disaspora JewryJameel @ The Muqatahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148885490005152982006-05-29T09:51:00.000+03:002006-05-29T09:51:00.000+03:00scraps: Just took a look. The covered up hashgacha...scraps: Just took a look. The covered up hashgacha is the half-moon-K.<BR/><BR/>tm: Actually, it's more like: <BR/><BR/>I'm sorry Mrs. Cohen. You won't be able to get anything in your malpractice suit against the esteemed Dr. Friedman. You see he was never certified as a doctor in Israel and therefore the insurance company refused to cover him for legal reasons, so there is no money for you to win in your law suit. You went to a doctor that is simply not covered nor recognized by the system.JoeSettlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01232647820807408898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148583878607510832006-05-25T22:04:00.000+03:002006-05-25T22:04:00.000+03:00others think Fritos are okayGoing back about 20 ye...<I>others think Fritos are okay</I><BR/><BR/>Going back about 20 years -- Fritos from the Southern U.S. were OK.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148583318223592882006-05-25T21:55:00.000+03:002006-05-25T21:55:00.000+03:00doesn't mean that he really knows enough PRACTICAL...<I>doesn't mean that he really knows enough PRACTICAL Halacha to actually properly supervise such activities</I><BR/><BR/>It's not that complicated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148572416006396912006-05-25T18:53:00.000+03:002006-05-25T18:53:00.000+03:00After reading this thread for a while, I've made s...After reading this thread for a while, I've made some observations. The comparison between the new Israeli rabbinic attitude toward the American Orthodox rabbinate is a surprisingly good one. For although I've heard many people say that Triangle-K is not acceptable, no one can point to a specific reason why. It's just sort of a tradition, it seems, stemming back to some incident(s) or another far back enough in history that no one knows. My guess, considering the circumstances, is it's political and really has nothing to do, at least in these days, with kashrut. Isn't it, therefore, an aveira to continue to uphold this boycott if no one knows why they're doing it? Especially since I know some people who will eat only vegetables with this hechsher, others only juice, others think Fritos are okay, and nothing else- people are making their own rules to that configure to their own comfort zones. <BR/><BR/>In a strangely similar turn of events, for reasons that are fully known only to the Israeli rabbinate, American Jews and gerim are being judged based on an enormously broad mis-representation of their personal "hasgacha". While the motives being hashed out here and in many other places may seem to serve the greater interests of global Judaism, they make assumptions that are wrong, hurtful and possibly violate more principles of halacha than I know (hey, I'm just a girl!). In addition, we really don't know for sure if those are the rabbis' reasons behind this strange decree; it may well be simply political. <BR/><BR/>I'm all in favor of keeping high standards for Beis Dinnim. But doesn't the Shulchan Aruch already address these concerns? Or is that not good enough anymore?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148563849270706882006-05-25T16:30:00.000+03:002006-05-25T16:30:00.000+03:00By the way, at least some Kikkoman Soy Sauce in th...By the way, at least some Kikkoman Soy Sauce in the U.S. is actually under the Star-K, and I don't think I've ever seen anything from that brand under the Triangle-K (the Half-Moon-K maybe...).Scrapshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15911315552965685448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148563532097381952006-05-25T16:25:00.000+03:002006-05-25T16:25:00.000+03:00One of the wonders of Eretz Yisrael, the whole iss...One of the wonders of Eretz Yisrael, the whole issue comes out as <I>Devilish brats in Holy shrines</I>, it really can't be that bad, or is it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148553608607454702006-05-25T13:40:00.000+03:002006-05-25T13:40:00.000+03:00(Have you noticed that Kikkoman Soy Sauce has a Tr...<I>(Have you noticed that Kikkoman Soy Sauce has a Triangle-K on its original packing, but the importer covered it with an O-K on his Hebrew label?)</I> <BR/><BR/><B>Correction</B>: He put a Star-K on the label, not an O-K.<BR/><BR/>Joe the UnSettlerJoeSettlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01232647820807408898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148550136269460672006-05-25T12:42:00.000+03:002006-05-25T12:42:00.000+03:00I am personally aware of cases of US mashgichim fr...I am personally aware of cases of US mashgichim from certain large US kashrut organizations not eating from the factories they supervise.<BR/><BR/>It creates a real halachic problem and it is far from limited to just happening in Israel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148549931559017482006-05-25T12:38:00.000+03:002006-05-25T12:38:00.000+03:00On one hand I find it unsettling and the other han...On one hand I find it unsettling and the other hand I understand what they are doing.<BR/><BR/>The Rabbanut is not going to send its own Mashgichim to examine every single factory to make sure the products are kosher. Nor are they going to get involved with the arguments on the various chumras and kullas that the different overseas kashrut organizations rely upon.<BR/><BR/>They decided they will certify for the Israeli consumer that a particular Orthodox kashrut organization actually did give its certificate to a particular product. The Rabbanut views it as the consumers responsibility to decide if he accepts that foreign teudah, just like you decide between the Triangle-K and the OU.<BR/><BR/>They view themselves as providing a certificate of authenticity on the teudah itself, not the content.<BR/><BR/><BR/>The Rabbanut does a horrible hasbara job, so most people are unaware of this.JoeSettlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01232647820807408898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148549409901665522006-05-25T12:30:00.000+03:002006-05-25T12:30:00.000+03:00Joe:Rabbanut's attitude is that they are not certi...Joe:<BR/><BR/><I>Rabbanut's attitude is that they are not certifying the foreign foods as kosher. They are certifying that a kashrut organization (such as the Triangle-K) has given their certification on the item. <BR/><BR/>It's an important distinction. <BR/></I><BR/><BR/>Well, now, don't you find THAT rather unsettling? <BR/><BR/>That you can't even trust the rabbanut's kashrut for foreign hashgachot? How about all thoser super-duper frum looking ones from europe (which also have rabbanut harasheet on it) -- whats the point of the rabbanut saying they are OK to begin with? That's just as bad the Rabbanut mashgichim that get paid a fulltime salary to give hasgacha for a certain restaurant, but refuse to eat there (or let their family eat there).<BR/><BR/>Maybe you should also call yourself JoeUnsettler?<BR/><BR/>:-)Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148549210367775662006-05-25T12:26:00.000+03:002006-05-25T12:26:00.000+03:00And finally, is it really a higher standard in you...And finally, is it really a higher standard in your opinion, or has someone taken upon themselves a few extra Chumras?<BR/><BR/>(Did you remember to filter that tap water today?)JoeSettlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01232647820807408898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148549052570853512006-05-25T12:24:00.000+03:002006-05-25T12:24:00.000+03:00Actually the OU and the Rabbanut have different st...Actually the OU and the Rabbanut have <B>different</B> standards when it comes to Kashrut.<BR/>(And the Rabbanut has different levels such as Rabbanut-Mehdrin, etc.)<BR/><BR/>For instance, with regard to shchitah, one prefers the animal be upright and the other prefers the animal be upside down when slaughtered (I forget who prefers what). It has practical ramifications (speed of the bleeding, difficulty for the shochet) and each side considers themselves the more makpid side.JoeSettlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01232647820807408898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148548603409184132006-05-25T12:16:00.000+03:002006-05-25T12:16:00.000+03:00Someone (I think from the OU) told me (and I never...Someone (I think from the OU) told me (and I never confirmed it so don't take my word for it) that the Rabbanut's attitude is that they are not certifying the foreign foods as kosher. They are certifying that a kashrut organization (such as the Triangle-K) has given their certification on the item. <BR/><BR/>It's an important distinction. <BR/><BR/>(Have you noticed that Kikkoman Soy Sauce has a Triangle-K on its original packing, but the importer covered it with an O-K on his Hebrew label?)JoeSettlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01232647820807408898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148542343388507252006-05-25T10:32:00.000+03:002006-05-25T10:32:00.000+03:00MFMD: I'm not saying that Rabbanut doesn't have pr...MFMD: I'm not saying that Rabbanut doesn't have problems...it has plenty of them. And the RCA and OU definitely have a higher standard when it comes to Kashrut.<BR/><BR/>When I'm in the US, I don't eat food with the Triangle-K hechser. Rightly or wrongly - we never did in our house (don't know more about that than what I just wrote).<BR/><BR/>However, the Rabbanut HaRasheet accepts the triangle-K for kashrut and then recertifies everything imported into Israel with triangle-K hasgacha as under the rabbanut as well.<BR/><BR/>I would like to hope that this isn't petty politics...and we'll see if JoeSettler is right or not. (After all, he was the one who spoke to me about this in the first place).Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148516810407389022006-05-25T03:26:00.000+03:002006-05-25T03:26:00.000+03:00It's ironic that at the same time the Israeli Rabb...It's ironic that at the same time the Israeli Rabbinate is losing its power in Israel (the Bagatz just limited it's power over civil cases,) it is trying to assert it's power in america.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148516709790993202006-05-25T03:25:00.000+03:002006-05-25T03:25:00.000+03:00The issue here is not one of streamlining the conv...The issue here is not one of streamlining the conversion process. If you look at the list of Rabbis who are certified and those who are not, some of the ones who aren't certified are more knowlegable and experienced than those who are certified. This is about politics. The Jerusalem Bes Din issued a seruv against the RCA because of another issue. The RCA's response was that rabbi's in ISrael do not have judrisdiction over American rabbis. This is their response.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148503464969080082006-05-24T23:44:00.000+03:002006-05-24T23:44:00.000+03:00If the scenario is as you describe it, her daughte...If the scenario is as you describe it, her daughter probably isn't observant either and I wouldn't want my son marrying her in any case! :-P<BR/><BR/>I understand what you're saying, but as someone else mentioned, we're not just talking about the Mara D'Asra of East Nowhere that they're rejecting.Scrapshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15911315552965685448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148496502539018462006-05-24T21:48:00.000+03:002006-05-24T21:48:00.000+03:00I'll give you an example, a woman went to an "Orth...I'll give you an example, a woman went to an "Orthodox" bais din and got converted so that she could get married to a Jewish man. <BR/>The "Orthodox" rabbi had them read a book that said if she was not planning on keeping the religion the conversion wasn't valid. The rabbi never invited he for shabbos, had her invited out for shabbos or checked if she actually tried to be shomer shabbos. In fact the woman has never kept a single shabbos in her life. <BR/><BR/>Is her daughter Jewish? Remember it was an "Orthodox" rabbi and an "Orthodox" bais din.<BR/>Would you want your son to marry her?rockofgalileehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07939653236475167491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148496229952898192006-05-24T21:43:00.000+03:002006-05-24T21:43:00.000+03:00scraps, lets say that 15 years ago the Orthodox "m...scraps, lets say that 15 years ago the Orthodox "mara d'asra of Cheyenne, Wyoming" really did the divorce wrong and the children really are mamzerim?<BR/>Would you prefer to hide that under the guise of "well it was an Orthodox rabbi"?rockofgalileehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07939653236475167491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148496065189413432006-05-24T21:41:00.000+03:002006-05-24T21:41:00.000+03:00Rabbi Amar did not accept the certification of the...Rabbi Amar did not accept the certification of the head of the RCA's Beis Din.-that is not disrespectful and causing serious machlokes?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148494467241992332006-05-24T21:14:00.000+03:002006-05-24T21:14:00.000+03:00It's interesting that everyone is confusing someth...It's interesting that everyone is confusing something that is being implemented to reduce bureaucracy and bottlenecks and assuming that it will instead automatically invalidate previous actions.JoeSettlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01232647820807408898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148492062440056922006-05-24T20:34:00.000+03:002006-05-24T20:34:00.000+03:00whoops, sorry, meant to write :"they are challengi...whoops, sorry, meant to write :<BR/><BR/>"they are challenging the identity"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148492008402625142006-05-24T20:33:00.000+03:002006-05-24T20:33:00.000+03:00I disagree with you very strongly on this one. As...I disagree with you very strongly on this one. <BR/><BR/>As a mikva l'chumra baby, I would be hurt and offended if the rabbanut made me re-tovel. Because theyre the identity I've had for 21 years. That's very different from the annoyance of having to get a new drivers license. <BR/><BR/>It's also easier to agree on Drivers Ed. standards, and university standards, than to agree on what orthodox judaism should be. Nor are Israeli academic insitutions known for the corruption and the power plays of the rabbanut. <BR/><BR/>We'll see how this plays out. But seeing how reluctant they are to give the benefit of the doubt, and seeing the general state of beaurocracy in the rabbanut, a lot of innocent people are probably going to be hurt.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148489435876082302006-05-24T19:50:00.000+03:002006-05-24T19:50:00.000+03:00FG: Israel is great at bureaucracy, but you know w...FG: Israel is great at bureaucracy, but you know what? My wife had to do some paperwork in the US a few times and it was very difficult to get it done because she isn't a citizen and doesn't have the documentation they recognized for the purpose.<BR/><BR/>Look what happened to Jameel and Jerusalemcop when they went to register their children as US citizens. Not so easy either.<BR/><BR/><BR/>MFD: <BR/>1. I'm sure they'll find a resolution for the RCA over time. Perhaps they'll have the RCA do their next convention in Israel and everyone will get certified and asked to make Aliyah. :)<BR/><BR/>2. The hurdles are already there in Misrad Hapnim and the Rabbanut and they won't get diminished due to the nature of the bureaucracy. But they aren't adding any new ones, only removing them for many people (and for most of them if the Galus Rabbis think about it a little bit).JoeSettlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01232647820807408898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1148484789007198902006-05-24T18:33:00.000+03:002006-05-24T18:33:00.000+03:00Two problems:One, the RCA has standards too. Thus,...Two problems:<BR/><BR/>One, the RCA has standards too. Thus, if the Chief Rabbinate doesn't accept that the RCA's standards are valid, at least bediavad, then it is indeed an insult.<BR/><BR/>Two, there are serious issues with, for lack of a better word, screwing around with geyrim. One could argue that placing hurdles in front of someone who has already converted and is therefore a Jews and a ger is oppression.Mississippi Fred MacDowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02734864605700159687noreply@blogger.com