tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post133916601517911724..comments2024-03-10T08:13:34.023+02:00Comments on The Muqata: Who Rules Israeli Chareidi Judaism?Jameel @ The Muqatahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-12882667132225671002007-11-29T00:41:00.000+02:002007-11-29T00:41:00.000+02:00Yes, Elchonon, you seem to be making accusations w...Yes, Elchonon, you seem to be making accusations without actually bringing proof to back it up. Then, you talk about the Army not wanting to follow "halacha". I put halacha in quotes, because I need to ask "halacha" according to whom? When you speak of "shmita k'halacha", what are you referring to? There is a chief Rabbi of the Army, and they have decided which hashkafa to follow and then attempt to accommodate, as much as possible, those that go by stricter Chumras.<BR/><BR/>As Jameel said, there are a ton of problems in the IDF. As I know it, observing halacha isn't one of them. Even if what you're saying about what happened in Golani is true, so what? First off, it seems typical Golani behavior. They're messed up. Secondly, since when is wearing your tzizit out our of your clothes "halacha"? How is telling someone to wear their tzizit inside a violation of halacha or a violation of someone's "frumness"? No-one in the Army is ever told they're not allowed to wear tzizit! These are simple questions that should be once again prefaced with the necessity on your part of bring proof of these incidents. <BR/><BR/>Next, this stepping on the bag incident, did the one doing the ordering know there was a tallit inside? You make it sound as if there was malicious intent without giving any CONTEXT!<BR/><BR/>Elchonen, are you even aware of the percentage of religious Sadirnikim and Meiliumnikim that serve in the Army? How about religious officers? You make it sound as if one cannot be religious in the Army, or that one has to compromise their religiosity in order to serve. Nothing could be further from the truth, and you insult every religious person that has or is currently serving.<BR/><BR/>By your "examples", you are insinuating that those that are serving in the Army that claim to be religious really aren't observant. <BR/><BR/>Finally, I have to ask the relevant question of whether you served? <BR/>-OCOlah Chadashahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04944285441651551482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-41382555598063093122007-11-27T10:56:00.000+02:002007-11-27T10:56:00.000+02:00Elchonon: You need to be a bit more coherent :-)Wh...Elchonon: You need to be a bit more coherent :-)<BR/><BR/>What's your point? That there are a ton of problems in the IDF? I agree with you. Can you eat Badatz in the IDF? Yes. You can even avoid kitniyot in the Nachal Chareidi.Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-30780579865432299492007-11-27T10:52:00.000+02:002007-11-27T10:52:00.000+02:00Anonymous said... It's well known that R' Aharon S...<I>Anonymous said... <BR/>It's well known that R' Aharon Shteinman is in favor of army service for those who don't succeed in yeshiva study. Can you name me a more respected charedi authority than R' Shteinman? OK, R' Eliashiv. Can you name me another? I don't think there is one.</I><BR/><BR/>I think you missed the point. It would be wonderful if gedolim would be in favor of a law which abolished the draft! My point is that the Chareidi politicians are trying to convince the gedolim otherwise.<BR/><BR/><I>Face it, there is disagreement in the chareidi world about army service, and most of the people who take one side can see the logic in the other side. That is common knowledge, Jameel, but it seems to have bypassed you.</I><BR/><BR/>Why do you think the logic "passed me by" -- I have no qualms with the Nachal Chareidi, not do I have a problem with people who want to learn in yeshiva. However, for Chareidi MKs to force people to learn in yeshiva by keeping the law in effect that you either "go to the IDF or learn in yeshiva and therefore have no chance of going to university" -- I find THAT abhorrent. Let people decide for themselves -- dont force them into hashkafic molds via Israeli law.<BR/><BR/><I>Jameel: May I ask if there are any charedim in the community in which you live?</I><BR/><BR/>I know many Chareidim who serve...and don't.Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-40813692969977679752007-11-27T00:29:00.000+02:002007-11-27T00:29:00.000+02:00Define chareidi? Chabadnikim serve... and at the r...Define chareidi? Chabadnikim serve... and at the rate of the secular deferments I bet Lubavitchers serve more!<BR/><BR/>The army is actualy like bar kochba after he sinned "kochi ub'otzrm yadi asa li et hachayil hazeh"<BR/><BR/>You still have not addressed the soldiers jailed for requesting shemita k'halacha, the golani soldiers arrested for wearing their tzitzis out, the soldier told to step on a bag only to find a talit there..<BR/><BR/>What the heck is this? Fonya's army ? (a play on Vonya Gonif which is what a cosack was called)<BR/><BR/>Mesiras nefesh to keep torah and mitzvos in the Israeli Army ? are you out of your mind ?!?!<BR/><BR/>Sure you gotta eat on yom kipur and drive on shabbat but that pikuach nefesh.. we are talking cases of regular day to day life..<BR/><BR/>And when a soldier demands no kitniyot food on pesach 464637657 scream "who the heck do you think you are?!?! eat like everyone else!"<BR/><BR/>I have no problem eating garbage.. but my garbage better have the hechsher I want.. theres no pikuach nefesh here.. the army can do it they just dont want to.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-80987600652618466312007-11-26T19:09:00.000+02:002007-11-26T19:09:00.000+02:00It's well known that R' Aharon Shteinman is in fav...It's well known that R' Aharon Shteinman is in favor of army service for those who don't succeed in yeshiva study. Can you name me a more respected charedi authority than R' Shteinman? OK, R' Eliashiv. Can you name me another? I don't think there is one.<BR/><BR/>Face it, there is disagreement in the chareidi world about army service, and most of the people who take one side can see the logic in the other side. That is common knowledge, Jameel, but it seems to have bypassed you.<BR/><BR/>Jameel: May I ask if there are any charedim in the community in which you live?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-48986789774237600742007-11-26T11:00:00.000+02:002007-11-26T11:00:00.000+02:00Good post Jameel.Yellow BoyGood post Jameel.<BR/><BR/>Yellow BoyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1520309970695628132007-11-26T09:45:00.000+02:002007-11-26T09:45:00.000+02:00"This is really an attempt to allow more people in..."This is really an attempt to allow more people into the workforce"<BR/><BR/>How unbelievably sad that Attias et al see this as a BAD thing. More men not working means more children growing up with inadequate nutrition, among other things.<BR/><BR/>But apparently politics trumps all! No wonder I have such disdain for politicians (not only haredi ones).JJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12177030621603250029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-41144670851982651402007-11-25T17:55:00.000+02:002007-11-25T17:55:00.000+02:00Incidently, how do you conclude from this that the...<I>Incidently, how do you conclude from this that the politicians control Chareidi Jewry? It would seem their Gedolim do; which is the official line.</I><BR/><BR/>Mike; Why in the world would a Godol who belives that the army is treif be UPSET if the law was changed and there was no draft? <BR/><BR/>Every Chareidi yeshiva student knows that the raison de etre of "not going to the IDF" is that the IDF is treif. It has nothing to do with Nachal Chareidi, women in the army, or if the food is Badatz or mehadrin -- it has to do with the army being assur, period.<BR/><BR/>It boggles the mind that a Chareidi poltician would freely admit that the emperor has no clothes and the only reason the army is treif is because politicians want their people to STAY in yeshivot. <BR/><BR/>Whats worse is WHY they want their students in school; they can't get jobs, they stay poor, and that keeps their politicians and askanim in power.<BR/><BR/>Yet they glibly say, "it's the gedolim who make our decisions" -- but it's quite obvious who is leading whom.Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-72307006623109796532007-11-25T17:48:00.000+02:002007-11-25T17:48:00.000+02:00When the IDF decides to follow the Torah's laws, m...<I>When the IDF decides to follow the Torah's laws, my friends and I will gladly fulfill our duty -– i.e. Bar Kokhba's army -– until then, I'd rather die in the tents of Torah!</I><BR/><BR/>Jameel: <I>No one dies in the tents of the Torah unless a bookcase falls on someone's head. That's probably the most offensive aspect of the editorial -- does the author honestly think he is promoting a Chareidi viewpoint by saying such things in YNET?</I><BR/><BR/>To "die in the tent of Torah" ("למות באוהלה של תורה") is a talmudic expression derived from a statement by Reish Lakish in TB Berakhot 63b.Lurkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05516196101946513020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-14846242095575528872007-11-25T17:41:00.000+02:002007-11-25T17:41:00.000+02:00One point that was completely missed here is that ...One point that was completely missed here is that Stern is leading the cry to dismantle all "same type of people" units like Nachal Hareidi and all-hesder units. He is trying to build more of the melting pot system. <BR/><BR/>He has no right to request people to join through one corner of his mouth and demand that it be disbanded through the other corner.rockofgalileehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07939653236475167491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-55245857921669295332007-11-25T17:38:00.000+02:002007-11-25T17:38:00.000+02:00Incidently, how do you conclude from this that the...Incidently, how do you conclude from this that the politicians control Chareidi Jewry? It would seem their Gedolim do; which is the official line. I see no evidence in the article (unlike in life...) that the tail is wagging the dog.Mikeagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15827275300296295639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-72766851550768751042007-11-25T17:36:00.000+02:002007-11-25T17:36:00.000+02:00Ask a chareidi parent which they prefer? Their kid...<I>Ask a chareidi parent which they prefer? Their kid being a dropout in kikar hafrikim (but still with a black kippa on his head), or joining the Nachal Chareidi...</I><BR/><BR/>From my experience in my little barely-chareidi corner of the world called RBS...<BR/><BR/>I'd say many parents would prefer the second.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, if you view both as treif, it seems more likely that a kid will be chozer b'tshuva from the first than the second. However, the numbers are so small either way... both cases would seem to be a tragedy to a parent who doesn't believe in either derech.Mikeagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15827275300296295639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-21026484268013792382007-11-25T17:23:00.000+02:002007-11-25T17:23:00.000+02:00There's a story in Bnei Brak about some kids that ...There's a story in Bnei Brak about some kids that used to hang out at one of the local fistukim shops and smoke and whatever all day.<BR/><BR/>The storeowner took one of the kids, whom he thought was going in a very very bad direction, and gave him a job.<BR/><BR/>The parents were mortified.<BR/><BR/>They made the life of the storekeeper miserable in every way possible. So he fired the kid.<BR/><BR/>The kid then disappeared.<BR/><BR/>The parents then realized that the storekeeper was the only one keeping the kid in line (and at home), so they begged him to take the kid back.<BR/><BR/>Eventually, the kid came up for air, and he got his job back.<BR/><BR/>But the attitude is indicative of the problem.JoeSettlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01232647820807408898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-36710230912733625052007-11-25T17:10:00.000+02:002007-11-25T17:10:00.000+02:00OC; Perhaps I should clarify; my beef is not with ...OC; Perhaps I should clarify; my beef is not with the Nachal Chareidi. I think they are quality soldiers, and there are all sorts of reasons why people go there; ranging from chardal soldiers, to chareidi soldiers, to chareidi drop outs who want a better environment. The perception however in the Chareidi world is extremely negative towards soldiers in the Nachal Chareidi.<BR/><BR/>The thrust of my posting is that the IDF is considered treif in general by the Chareidi MKs and askanim, to the point that even if the mandatory "IDF drfat or learn in yeshiva issue" was comepltely abolished, the Chareidi world would vote AGAINST it, because it would mean that there would be no one forcing Chareidim to stay in yeshiva.<BR/><BR/>Ask a chareidi parent which they prefer? Their kid being a dropout in kikar hafrikim (but still with a black kippa on his head), or joining the Nachal Chareidi...Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-89663035356084720052007-11-25T16:56:00.000+02:002007-11-25T16:56:00.000+02:00Jameel, I agree with josettler. My husband was an ...Jameel, I agree with josettler. My husband was an officer in the Nahel Chareidi when it was still in its infancy, and he has since seen a complete 180 in the community's attitude toward the service. Firstly, the Nahel Chareidi has become an exceptional performing force of the IDF. Starting out as a joke, they have become a very professional and proficient arm of the IDF. They do very well.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, they have also become more and more accepted within the Chareidi community. My husband stays in regular contact with his soldiers, and the news he's hearing gives a lot of room for optimism. When it first began, yes, he would regularly hear from his soldiers that they were dead to their families and how they sat shiva. But, that's really changed. Here's the ultimate measure of success. Almost all of his soldiers were not only able to get Shiduchs but excellent ones, at that. On top of that, he's hearing more and more that serving in the Nahal has become a prime factor in getting the best Shiduchs. It's not looked down upon anymore. It's really gaining acceptance. <BR/><BR/>I don't really understand where this pessimism is coming from. The Nahal Chareidi is succeeding and showing a lot of positive results. I'm going to trust the soldiers on the ground, that have lived through it, more than I'm going to trust one anonymous Yeshiva student writing an op-ed. Unlike this person, the people my husband talk to have no agenda, political or otherwise, when they tell him what's going on.<BR/>-OCOlah Chadashahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04944285441651551482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-20685286599832105012007-11-25T16:43:00.000+02:002007-11-25T16:43:00.000+02:00I read the original article, and was left wonderin...I read the original article, and was left wondering.<BR/><BR/>I have never heard a bad word about the performance of Nachal Chareidi soldiers. <BR/><BR/>In fact, like Hesder soldiers, I've only heard the highest praise for their professionalism and dedication to keeping the Torah while fulfilling their IDF duties.<BR/><BR/>I've heard wonderful stories about a few "bad" kids turned around by a little healthy discipline, the quality social environment, and a set of goals that doesn't involve sleeping and smoking the day through shiurim (if they make it as far as the Yeshiva).<BR/><BR/>If he's heard bad stories about the boys, that's news to me (and more an indictment of where the boys came from, than the army environment they went to).<BR/><BR/>The Nachal Chareidi boys I've met had nothing but pride for what they do, even if their sector of society frowns down upon them and is ashamed of them.<BR/><BR/>If parents are "sitting shiva" for them for joining the army, I wonder what they are doing as they instead become batlanim on the corners of Rabbi Akiva St.JoeSettlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01232647820807408898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-14264341887771281782007-11-25T16:24:00.000+02:002007-11-25T16:24:00.000+02:00hoot! hoot!hoot! hoot!Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.com