tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post1880625886705406004..comments2024-03-10T08:13:34.023+02:00Comments on The Muqata: The Festival of HateJameel @ The Muqatahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-24583251812098185852007-10-28T15:01:00.000+02:002007-10-28T15:01:00.000+02:00Kol hakavod Jameel.I emailed the picture to plenty...Kol hakavod Jameel.<BR/><BR/>I emailed the picture to plenty of people. I hope others do as well.<BR/><BR/>I am convinced that "The Festival of Hate" is indeed the correct term for the media circus surrounding this memorial day, and that a very large part of the population realizes it, a percentage which is growing. I don't think that we have to apologize for pointing this out as much as possible.Saul Mashbaumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02350115979726880628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-53489414375984087382007-10-28T11:30:00.000+02:002007-10-28T11:30:00.000+02:00Hi Jonathan,Jameel here. Sorry I wasn't around to...Hi Jonathan,<BR/><BR/>Jameel here. Sorry I wasn't around to answer your questions directly last week, but I was a bit under the weather. (And I didn't even read my blog, which is very rare)<BR/><BR/>First of all, I'd like to thank you for taking the time to comment here. Also, please be advised that while there are all sorts of people that comment here -- and there representation of the "right wing" is not always the same as mine. <BR/><BR/>I will get back to this comment thread a bit later today with more of my own insights, and hope to satisfactorily answer your questions.<BR/><BR/>Regards (and thanks for your comments),<BR/><BR/>JameelJameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-29431635386958082352007-10-26T14:23:00.000+02:002007-10-26T14:23:00.000+02:00hi jonathanjust curious again: you say that you ar...hi jonathan<BR/><BR/>just curious again: you say that you are neither 'right' nor 'left', but neutral.<BR/><BR/>how are you definining 'right' and 'left'? ie, what does someone have to say, do or believe to be 'right' or 'left'?<BR/><BR/>shabbat shalomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-39549724396288604192007-10-26T03:44:00.000+02:002007-10-26T03:44:00.000+02:00The reason Irgun and Lechi went after dir yassin w...The reason Irgun and Lechi went after dir yassin was because of the fact that they were a hostile village harboring terrorists... they were terrorizing and murdering jews passing along the road.. <BR/><BR/>I dont see why you bring Bush in as a joke.. I am telling you based on historic studies and ezra yakhin's book.<BR/><BR/>You brought up goldstein.. which had no connection to Rabin's assasination... you brought up dir yassin as some sort of comparision to altalena...<BR/><BR/>I figured I'd throw the Chevron massacre in for good messure? <BR/><BR/>Why focus on 3 casses of jewish in the past 60 years when goldstein and dir yassin can't be proven as outright butchery yet ignoring the thousands of arab killings ?<BR/><BR/>Its not that I am going to argue about jewish values ...<BR/><BR/>Yet you seem to hold "jewish values" higher than jewish lives..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-53906624711745882132007-10-26T03:27:00.000+02:002007-10-26T03:27:00.000+02:00Joe,Ive never read the shmagar report in its origi...Joe,<BR/>Ive never read the shmagar report in its original, and I will not use wiki for facts..<BR/><BR/>http://www.geocities.com/chaimsimons/baruchgoldstein<BR/><BR/>"A study of the Minutes of the proceedings of the Shamgar Commission (over 2,200 pages in open sessions alone) reveals that intelligence sources had reported on an impending attack by Arabs against Jews in Hebron in the period around Purim. This was not just a stray statement given by one witness, but the clear and unambiguous testimony of no fewer than nine officers in the defense establishment! "<BR/><BR/>He does not however directly quote the shamgar commision regarding weapons inside, instead he quotes various people..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-32233467298540967122007-10-26T02:47:00.000+02:002007-10-26T02:47:00.000+02:00"What Israel fails to understand is that there's a...<I>"What Israel fails to understand is that there's a huge gap between writing the above and supporting the killing of Jews by Jews <B>(which I do not support.)"</B></I><BR/><BR/>And finally, as you can see from the quote in the original article, I think Jameel already stated his position on some of the questions you asked.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-47336975403430919102007-10-26T02:42:00.000+02:002007-10-26T02:42:00.000+02:00I wonder if Lurker can provide a reliable link to ...I wonder if Lurker can provide a reliable link to information supposedly part of the Shamgar Commission report about the alleged weapons cache found in the Ma'arat Hamachpela, as well as to the alleged army reports that they were expecting an imminent massace by the Arabs that Purim?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-6042558961637287012007-10-26T02:05:00.000+02:002007-10-26T02:05:00.000+02:00Jonathan,Jameel is not ignoring you. Jameel is cur...Jonathan,<BR/><BR/>Jameel is not ignoring you. <BR/><BR/>Jameel is currently under the weather, and will be back to blogging next week. He has been made aware that you have asked him questions. He hasn’t gone online to actually read them yet. I believe he will answer your questions next week. (Let’s all wish him a refuah shleimah).<BR/><BR/>In the meantime, I think the vehemence you feel towards you and the questions you’ve asked is from the unfortunate manner in which your questions have been phrased. <BR/><BR/>It is not that you simply come across as ignorant of very basic facts and history.<BR/><BR/>But rather, that you asked your questions in a way that shows that you've been presented and have accepted a rather one-sided, propagandized version of events.<BR/><BR/>Versions that come from <BR/>(a) Arab propaganda (the completely discredited Deir Yassin pseudo-history), <BR/>(b) standard left-wing nonsense (that the democratic process was respected and not completely trampled on to advance the Oslo agenda), <BR/>(c) left-wing incitement (those who protested against the Oslo agenda are collectively guilty of killing Rabin) and <BR/>(d) attempts to silence, disparage and discredit any verbal opposition (any response by the Right is defensive polemics, and you must first publicly state your regret for Rabin's murder if you wish to express any opinion on the matter, which also goes back to (c)).<BR/><BR/>Still, if you look underneath the strong responses you received from (most of) the commenters you will learn of a more complete version of the actual facts of what happened, and perhaps understand why your questions come across as so incredibly offensive.<BR/><BR/>You are also asking the questions during the month long period in which the Left in Israel use to collectively (and continuously) bash the Right on all media and political fronts while ignoring the results of their own actions. It is a time that will generally draw a stronger response to questions phrased by someone using left-wing propaganda as a baseline for their questions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-86772607591051512512007-10-26T00:44:00.000+02:002007-10-26T00:44:00.000+02:00Jonathan: Killing innocents is abhorrent. Period...Jonathan: <I>Killing innocents is abhorrent. Period. If y. rabin did it, he is culpable as well.</I><BR/><BR/><I>If</I> he did it? Are you trying to suggest that perhaps he didn't? On what basis?Lurkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05516196101946513020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-77580247646476964642007-10-26T00:41:00.000+02:002007-10-26T00:41:00.000+02:00Jonathan: Again, although you seem suspicious of ...Jonathan: <I>Again, although you seem suspicious of my motives, this is not meant to be antagonostic.</I><BR/><BR/>I am not suspicious of your motives. You just don't seem to know very much (as you yourself have indicated), and you make all sorts of assumptions that are based upon propaganda rather than facts. I don't intend to be antagonostic either.Lurkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05516196101946513020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-39269138900758701622007-10-26T00:36:00.000+02:002007-10-26T00:36:00.000+02:00Jonathan: During my lunch hour I coincidentally l...Jonathan: <I>During my lunch hour I coincidentally looked up the Wikipedia entry for Deir yassin. Does your quoting Wiki for the Altalena mean you would also quote it for D.Y.?</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, certainly I would (and have). The Wikipedia article quotes sources on both sides of the issue. Some of the quotes in the article are quite edifying, such as the following:<BR/><BR/><I>Meir Pa'il's eyewitness account is one of the most detailed single eye witness accounts of the massacre, as he claims to have been at the scene while it happened...<BR/>Historian Uri Milstein says: "On a massacre following the battle there is only the account of Me’ir Pa’il, who claims that he was in the village during and after the battle," and subsequently brings evidence that Pa’il was not at Deir-Yassin at all. All other members of the Irgun denied seeing Pa'il there.<BR/><BR/>Yunes Ahmed Assad testified in Al Urdun, a daily Jordanian newspaper:<BR/><BR/>"The Jews never intended to hurt the population of the village, but were forced to do so after they met enemy fire from the population, which killed the Irgun commander."<BR/><BR/>In an article dated April 2, 1998, The Jerusalem Post describes a BBC program in which Abu Mahmud resident of Dir Yassin in 1948 stated: "... the villagers protested against the atrocity claims: We said, "There was no rape." [Khalidi] said, "We have to say this, so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews..."<BR/><BR/>Khalidi was a prominent Palestinian Arab leader who pushed the editor of the Palestine Broadcasting Service's Arabic news in 1948, Hazem Nusseibeh, to make the most use of alleged atrocities in Dir Yassin.<BR/><BR/>Mohammed Radwan who fought in the battle:-<BR/><BR/>"I know when I speak that God is up there and God knows the truth and God will not forgive the liars," said Radwan, who puts the number of villagers killed at 93, listed in his own handwriting. "There were no rapes. It's all lies. There were no pregnant women who were slit open. It was propaganda that... Arabs put out so Arab armies would invade," he said. "They ended up expelling people from all of Palestine on the rumor of Deir Yassin." This was reported by Paul Holmes, Middle East Times, 20-April-1998 <BR/><BR/>Ayish Zeidan, a teenager, known as Haj Ayish:-<BR/><BR/>"We heard shooting. My mother did not want us to look out of the window. I fled with my sister, but my mother and my other sisters could not make it. They hid in the cellar for four days and then ran away". He said he never believed that more than 110 people had died at Deir Yassin and that Arab leaders exaggerated the atrocities. "There had been no rape. The Arab radio at the time talked of women being killed and raped, but this is not true. I believe that most of those who were killed were among the fighters and the women and children who helped the fighters."<BR/><BR/>Menachem Begin, who did not partecipate in the battle, wrote that:-<BR/><BR/>'Apart from the military aspect, there is a moral aspect to the story of Dir Yassin. At that village, whose name was publicized throughout the world, both sides suffered heavy casualties. We had four killed and nearly forty wounded. The number of casualties was nearly forty percent of the total number of the attackers. The Arab troops suffered casualties nearly three times as heavy. The fighting was thus very severe. Yet the hostile propaganda, disseminated throughout the world, deliberately ignored the fact that the civilian population of Dir Yassin was actually given a warning by us before the battle began. One of our tenders carrying a loud speaker was stationed at the entrance to the village and it exhorted in Arabic all women, children and aged to leave their houses and to take shelter on the slopes of the hill. By giving this humane warning our fighters threw away the element of complete surprise, and thus increased their own risk in the ensuing battle. A substantial number of the inhabitants obeyed the warning and they were unhurt. A few did not leave their stone houses — perhaps because of the confusion. The fire of the enemy was murderous - to which the number of our casualties bears eloquent testimony. Our men were compelled to fight for every house; to overcome the enemy they used large numbers of hand grenades. And the civilians who had disregarded our warnings suffered inevitable casualties.<BR/><BR/>The education which we gave our soldiers throughout the years of revolt was based on the observance of the traditional laws of war. We never broke them unless the enemy first did so and thus forced us, in accordance with the accepted custom of war, to apply reprisals. I am convinced, too, that our officers and men wished to avoid a single unnecessary casualty in the Dir Yassin battle. But those who throw stones of denunciation at the conquerors of Dir Yassin would do well not to don the cloak of hypocrisy.<BR/><BR/>In connection with the capture of Dir Yassin the Jewish Agency found it necessary to send a letter of apology to Abdullah, whom Mr. Ben Gurion, at a moment of great political emotion, called 'the wise ruler who seeks the good of his people and this country.' The 'wise ruler,' whose mercenary forces demolished Gush Etzion and flung the bodies of its heroic defenders to birds of prey, replied with feudal superciliousness. He rejected the apology and replied that the Jews were all to blame and that he did not believe in the existence of 'dissidents.' Throughout the Arab world and the world at large a wave of lying propaganda was let loose about 'Jewish atrocities.'</I>Lurkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05516196101946513020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-40612930388128709092007-10-25T23:59:00.000+02:002007-10-25T23:59:00.000+02:00Yes. I've been there numerous times. I have friend...Yes. I've been there numerous times. I have friends in Tel Aviv, Ranana, Modiin, and Efrat.<BR/>I've been to Chevron and I've been to Eilat. I just don't take political sides.<BR/>JonathanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-17451220559990087692007-10-25T22:30:00.000+02:002007-10-25T22:30:00.000+02:00jonathanhave you ever visited israel? (no offense ...jonathan<BR/><BR/>have you ever visited israel? (no offense or sarcasm, just wondering how much exposure you've had to the reality of israel - which is very, very different to the way it's reported)<BR/><BR/>just curiousAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-58272115570667091142007-10-25T21:54:00.000+02:002007-10-25T21:54:00.000+02:00The Chevron massacre was terrible. No debate. What...The Chevron massacre was terrible. No debate. What does it have to do with what we're talking about? They're not even in the same time frame. And I know someone who observes Jewish law would never suggest an eye for an eye applies under these circumstances.<BR/>I like the idea that Deir Yassin was harboring terrorists. It's using a George W Bush term for an era where I'm not even sure the term terrorist had been created yet.<BR/>Killing innocents is abhorrent. Period. If y. rabin did it, he is culpable as well. But let's call a spade a spade.<BR/>JonathanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-25569785835809599562007-10-25T21:48:00.000+02:002007-10-25T21:48:00.000+02:00I'm sorry. I missed something. Who were the people...I'm sorry. I missed something. Who were the people B Goldstein killed? I'm sorry to sound ignorant, but weren't they just people at a mosque? I never heard anyone claim they were conspiring or an imminent threat. Weren't they just Arabs at the wrong place at the wrong time? Were they armed?<BR/>I don't mean to sound antagonistic, I'm just trying to ascertain the facts.<BR/>Thanks, JonathanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-78805186466161364272007-10-25T21:00:00.000+02:002007-10-25T21:00:00.000+02:00My question why you bring up dir yassin and blatan...My question why you bring up dir yassin and blatantly ignore the chevron massacre..<BR/><BR/>Dir yassin was a hostile village harboring, aiding and abbeting terrorists.. <BR/><BR/>What happend is widely disputed at all fronts.. how many were killed ? the number used these days is at 107 but is probably at 60 in reality.. <BR/><BR/>How many were fighters ? men wearing women's clothing? killed accidently? women attacking those fighting?<BR/><BR/>Yes a few were gunned down in retaliation for their commanders death but hardly comparable with a all out massacre and butchery of Hebron's jewish residents in 1929.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-73124192501921853902007-10-25T20:47:00.002+02:002007-10-25T20:47:00.002+02:00(From a very clever piece written about Rabin's Ya...(From a very clever piece written about Rabin's Yahrzheit)<BR/><BR/><B><I>Simplistic debates fill the papers and the screens, with polemicists on the left claiming immunity (for one night only!) and taking the opportunity to bash the religious/right and appear holier than thou, (all the while simultaneously opportunistically plugging their latest political/peace/whatever proposals by cynically sticking Rabin's name on it and defining it as a central pillar of his 'legacy'). Which is then typically followed, or pre-empted, by defensive polemicists from the right banging on about the Altelena and leftist hypocrisy.</B></I><BR/><BR/>Indeed. What a shame that the blogosphere- this blog in particular- has to get stuck in this rut too...<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Finally, some free (and friendly) Advice to Jonathan:<BR/><BR/>1. Take <B>no</B> notice of Orange&Black: He's about as genuine as he's accusing you of not being. <BR/>2. If you honestly want to hear from Jameel, you should probably email him instead of throwing more meat on the BBQ of the hungry phantom sharks.tafka PPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17166682612446711810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1181447318405280322007-10-25T20:47:00.001+02:002007-10-25T20:47:00.001+02:00Once again, thank you for your response, though no...Once again, thank you for your response, though not solicited. During my lunch hour I coincidentally looked up the Wikipedia entry for Deir yassin. Does your quoting Wiki for the Altalena mean you would also quote it for D.Y.? Again, although you seem suspicious of my motives, this is not meant to be antagonostic.<BR/>JonathanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-79234889103331428692007-10-25T20:38:00.000+02:002007-10-25T20:38:00.000+02:00Jonathan: I'm sorry that mainstream questions and...Jonathan: <I>I'm sorry that mainstream questions and statements seem so radical to this audience.</I><BR/><BR/>Jonathan, your comments are not "radical". They are, however, steeped in ignorance borne of exposure to one-sided propaganda.Lurkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05516196101946513020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-20840272064572338262007-10-25T20:37:00.000+02:002007-10-25T20:37:00.000+02:00Jonathan: I specifically requested that Jameel an...Jonathan: <I>I specifically requested that Jameel answer. I really had no interest in hearing from the rest of you. Your answers are predictable...<BR/>Jameel, I really wanted to hear from you and not your readers. They kind of scare me.</I><BR/><BR/>I hope that you will forgive me for responding to your comments once again. You made numerous statements that are based upon erroneous assumptions, and I feel that it is appropriate to respond to them. This <I>is</I> an open forum, after all. I will try not to scare you too much...<BR/><BR/>Jonathan: <I>In the typical history of Israel (I read Paul Johnson's History of the Jews and another history of Zionism whose author I can't recall) there is no mention of shooting people in the water. Just that the Irgun would not surrender the arms. I never heard that before.</I><BR/><BR/>The shooting of unarmed people in the water is mentioned in countless primary and secondary accounts of the Altalena massacre. For a typical example, see the <A HREF="http://www.answers.com/topic/altalena-affair" REL="nofollow">Wikipedia entry</A>:<BR/><BR/><I>There was danger that the fire would spread to the holds which contained explosives, and Captain Monroe Fein ordered all aboard to abandon ship. People jumped into the water, whilst their comrades on shore set out to meet them on rafts. <B>Although Captain Fein flew the white flag of surrender, automatic fire continued to be directed at the unarmed survivors swimming in the water.</B></I><BR/><BR/>The following is the written testimony of Captain Monroe Fein:<BR/><BR/><I>"The first thought all of us had was to remove the wounded men. There was no panic. Everyone behaved in an extremely calm and heroic manner. As the men began jumping off the ship and swimming towards the shore, those of us still on board saw that they were being shot at continuously from rifles and machine-guns on the beach. <B>I rushed to the bridge and began waving a white flag and shouting to stop the fire on the men who were swimming for their lives. At the same time another man hoisted a large piece of white canvas on the halyard, but these efforts were of little avail, as the firing continued."</B></I><BR/>[<I>Days of Fire</I> by Shmuel Katz, W.H. Allen, London, 1968]<BR/><BR/>Feel free to consult with just about any other serious detailed account of the Altalena massacre, and you will find the same thing. The shooting of the men swimming in the water is a very well-established fact. Btw, I once met the daughter of one of the men who was murdered by Rabin while trying to swim to shore.<BR/><BR/>So, perhaps you can answer my earlier question: Knowing this, do <I>you</I> maintain that Rabin was <I>not</I> a murderer?Lurkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05516196101946513020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-76439229691627584942007-10-25T19:13:00.000+02:002007-10-25T19:13:00.000+02:00Wow.I specifically requested that Jameel answer. I...Wow.<BR/>I specifically requested that Jameel answer. I really had no interest in hearing from the rest of you. Your answers are predictable.<BR/>Orange and Black. you give me too much credit. I honestly don't know the details of these things. I really am new to all this. In the typical history of Israel (I read Paul Johnson's History of the Jews and another history of Zionism whose author I can't recall) there is no mention of shooting people in the water. Just that the Irgun would not surrender the arms. I never heard that before. Still, why is it justified that they wanted their own armaments at all?<BR/>Orange and Black, your accusation that I'm a phony is kind of sad. My questions are legit, and I'm really not particularly left or right. I guess in the Hillel and Shamai debate about teach me the Torah on one foot, you would have been the Shamai character who throws the man out of the room.<BR/>Daniel, your statements on Deir Yassin and that killing Arabs over Jews is somehow better is quite frankly just scary. Were you always this radical? It's remarks like that which alienate people like me and make you suspect. I think it's kind of funny in the same stream as people claiming the Right had nothing to do with baruch Goldstein.<BR/>Daniel, Ben Gurion wasn't elected. That's funny. In 1948, was there time for a legitimate election? Clearly,Begin and his supporters were the minority, as was evidenced by the electios which were held thereafter. That's very amusing.<BR/>Lurker, thank you for trying to give me the facts. I'll sit down tonight and read them when I have a little bit more time. As for your claim that rabin bragged about shooting them in the water, I'll have to read that myself.<BR/>Elchonon, this is a real question. No sarcasm. I just want to understand. How did Baruch Goldstein prevent a massacre? Were the people he specifically shot terrorists? How does his specific act of killing people relate to Jameel being shot at in 2007?<BR/>Jameel, I really wanted to hear from you and not your readers. They kind of scare me. I'd like to think you could give me more thoughtful answer to my questions.<BR/>Free advice: If you write about killing Arabs or how Jewish lives are worth more than others, you just come out sounding crazy and radical. The world values Jewish values. Maybe you should exhibit some.<BR/>I'm sorry that mainstream questions and statements seem so radical to this audience. Most people in the Jewish community might asked them if allowed. <BR/>All the best, JonathanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-40051875457813707922007-10-25T12:25:00.000+02:002007-10-25T12:25:00.000+02:00For all those who feel that the Altalena massacre ...For all those who feel that the Altalena massacre should be ignored when discussing Yitzhak Rabin's legacy, it should be borne in mind that Rabin <I>himself</I> saw his role in the execution of this atrocity as the crowning achievement of his career, and he used to brag about it:<BR/><BR/><I>When Rabin was Israel's ambassador in Washington, the embassy held an Israel Independence Day celebration. Each of the guests was asked to recall a memorable event that he had experienced. Of all his experiences, Yitzchak Rabin chose the story of how he had personally shot the Jews -- some of them Holocaust refugees -- who had jumped overboard the burning Altalena. <B>"We shot them on the ship and we shot them while they swam in the water,"</B> Rabin bragged to the embarrassed guests.</I><BR/>[From a 2001 <A HREF="http://www.jewishisrael.org/news/updates.htm#LETTER.BLOCK16" REL="nofollow">essay</A> by Moshe Feiglin]Lurkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05516196101946513020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-47093620252460044202007-10-25T12:22:00.000+02:002007-10-25T12:22:00.000+02:00Jonathan: Oh, and can you explain how the Altalen...Jonathan: <I>Oh, and can you explain how the Altalena was Rabin killing Jewish innocents? From my understanding, it was a ship full of arms that parties involved refused to relinquish to the then nascent Israeli Defense forces.</I><BR/><BR/>You should be aware, then, that your "understanding" is based on lies and gross distortions. The Irgun had already agreed to turn over the weapons to forces under Ben-Gurion's command, and they also agreed to integrate their own forces into the joint command structure that B-G had called for. They were in the middle of negotiations over the details when B-G ordered the sinking of the ship and the liquidation of all those on board. According to memoirs written by B-G's own aides who were present in his office, B-G had held off on giving this order for at least two days -- he first wanted to know whether Menahem Begin was personally on board the ship. When the message finally came that Begin was indeed aboard, B-G immediately picked up the phone and gave the order the sink the ship without delay.<BR/><BR/>Also, can <I>you</I> explain how Rabin was <I>not</I> guilty of murdering Jewish innocents, seeing as he continued firing on the ship even after those on board raised a white flag of surrender? And if you are prepared to justify even that, can you explain how Rabin was not guilty of murder even after he fired upon the unarmed survivors in the water, who were desperately trying to swim to shore?!Lurkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05516196101946513020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-37794931528929312482007-10-25T10:53:00.000+02:002007-10-25T10:53:00.000+02:00Jonathan: If the Altalena event was a massacre, h...Jonathan: <I>If the Altalena event was a massacre, how do you, Jameel, regard Deir Yaseen. Is that also a tragedy...<BR/>I'm not being sarcastic. I'm very interested in your answers...</I><BR/><BR/>You can find an excellent, thorough analysis of what happened at Deir Yassin <A HREF="http://web.archive.org/web/20060424071950/http://www.zoa.org/pubs/DeirYassin.htm" REL="nofollow">here</A>.Lurkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05516196101946513020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-35944533636874590582007-10-25T08:25:00.000+02:002007-10-25T08:25:00.000+02:00But Elchonon, Jenin wasn't a massacre, the Arabs o...But Elchonon, Jenin wasn't a massacre, the Arabs only claimed it was.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Oh, I get it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com