tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post2087982640581244847..comments2024-03-10T08:13:34.023+02:00Comments on The Muqata: Bnei Akiva Teens Slam Leftist IDF ObjectorsJameel @ The Muqatahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-35209133690812793962009-10-18T18:06:29.757+02:002009-10-18T18:06:29.757+02:00Again, it comes down to whether you see not perfor...Again, it comes down to whether you see not performing any type of National Service as the baby and the bathwater. <br /><br />I agree, though, with the "no common denominator" assertion. But was the IDF ever the common denominator for all sectors? Plenty of Israelis don't serve (most Arabs, most Charedim, a large proportion of women, Olim over a certain age, and a whole slew of people deemed "unsuitable") so the question remains if it was ever a common denominator, or if it is a nostalgic, sentimental ambition that it could still be seen that way in today's fragmented Israeli society. <br /><br />Either way (don't all my comments end up like this?) it is very depressing.tafka ppnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-59505240321205698242009-10-14T21:04:15.303+02:002009-10-14T21:04:15.303+02:00Why can't they at least perform national servi...<i>Why can't they at least perform national service?</i><br /><br />Well maybe they can run a free nightly barbecue during Ramadan, it sounds like that's a crowd in which they'd be proud to do some chessed.<br /><br />In fact, I think sending those kids for a sleep-over in Jenin, Gaza or wherever, can give us all a lesson in how nicely they can coexist.Suzannanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-34659037678140571832009-10-14T19:24:35.172+02:002009-10-14T19:24:35.172+02:00Yeah - what Lurker said.Yeah - what Lurker said.Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-87815216352759143152009-10-14T19:13:58.901+02:002009-10-14T19:13:58.901+02:00Jameel: That doesn't stop me from throwing ou...Jameel: <i>That doesn't stop me from throwing out the proverbial baby with the bathwater.</i><br /><br />I presume you mean that it doesn't <i>cause</i> you to do so...Lurkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02712938121915827845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-5732583138407005252009-10-14T13:48:45.973+02:002009-10-14T13:48:45.973+02:00Jameel - why would I? I have respect for people wh...Jameel - why would I? I have respect for people who are willing to pay a personal price for their ideological beliefs. Goldstone benefited greatly from his ideology. It's what got him promoted from being a simple judge to being the head of some sort of Kafkaesque UN committee/kangaroo court, which I assume is quite an accomplishment in his eyes.Judeannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-71745537357567211812009-10-14T12:02:44.509+02:002009-10-14T12:02:44.509+02:00Hi Tafka PP! (I was waiting for your reply :-)
T...Hi Tafka PP! (I was waiting for your reply :-)<br /><br />This boils down to a very basic question I have posed many times: Is there any common denominator that binds this country's Jewish population together.<br /><br />If the far left refuses to do military service to defend the country based on moral objections -- I can understand. To take themselves completely out of the picture, not serve the country in any manner shape or form by refusing to do national service, means they have no common denominator with the country.<br /><br />If that's the case -- the really correct decision for them is to leave the country.<br /><br /><i>On the other hand, one can't expect future generations to blindly fall in line with decisions erroneously taken by previous generations in the name of Zionism, which has evolved into an entirely different beast since the founding of the State.</i><br /><br />I can list dozens of erroneous decisions that conflict with my own worldview -- from the evictions of Yamit and Gush Katif -- to the refusal to allow public Jewish prayer on Har Habayit.<br /><br />That doesn't stop me from throwing out the proverbial baby with the bathwater.Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-15362574692299828972009-10-14T11:45:30.176+02:002009-10-14T11:45:30.176+02:00Why *should* they do National Service? Why should ...Why *should* they do National Service? Why should they serve their country, if they don't perceive it as worth serving in it's current guise? They were born into a system they didn't choose, but at this point, they aren't "kids". They are 18, therefore old enough to fight, and also old enough to decide if they believe in what they are supposed to be fighting for. Whether they've been educated that the IDF is a defensive army or an occupying force, this group all have a right to their decision to comply with their government or to sit in prison, leave the country, whatever. As do the BA teens if they choose to serve. Neither group get any extra points for bravery or Zionism or Israeliness, as far as I'm concerned. <br /><br />It is no secret that that mandatory Army Service underlies all sorts of mechanisms within Israeli society- an unspoken phenomenon which has become increasingly problematic on a myriad of levels. The prospects for Israel without a strong army are terrifying. On the other hand, one can't expect future generations to blindly fall in line with decisions erroneously taken by previous generations in the name of Zionism, which has evolved into an entirely different beast since the founding of the State.tafka ppnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-26736384022700298692009-10-14T10:19:25.215+02:002009-10-14T10:19:25.215+02:00Judean: Do you have the same respect for Richard G...Judean: Do you have the same respect for Richard Goldstone as well?Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-52932320507818995112009-10-14T00:27:55.776+02:002009-10-14T00:27:55.776+02:00I presume those members of Bnei Akiva signing the ...<i>I presume those members of Bnei Akiva signing the second letter against the evasion of Army service for ideological reasons, will faithfully follow orders when told to remove settlers and settlements as part of a peace agreement...</i><br /><br />Your three periods are completely unnecessary, as the good boys and girls from bnei akiva proved back in the summer of 2005 that they have no problem ethnically cleansing Jews from the land. Whether or not there is a peace agreement is completely irrelevant. But beware! Beforehand they will organize some very creative and heartwarming protests to let you know how much they're against the said ethnic cleansing. <br /><br />The kids from Tel Aviv, on the otherhand (or at least a small handful of them) are willing to actually suffer for what they believe in. Some of them will go to kele 6 for a few months. No big deal, but it is still much more than what would have happened to the bnei akiva types if one of them refused to follow orders during the expulsion (21 days max. This from personal experience...) <br /><br />So even though I'm 100% opposed to what they stand for, I can't really help but respect the kids from Tel Aviv much more than the bnei akiva crowd.Judeannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-33240093549407168842009-10-13T23:52:54.868+02:002009-10-13T23:52:54.868+02:00YB: I presume those members of Bnei Akiva signing...YB: <i>I presume those members of Bnei Akiva signing the second letter against the evasion of Army service for ideological reasons...</i><br /><br />One more thing -- the leftist teens refuse to do sherut leumi as well. Why is that? If someone wants to not serve in the IDF for ideological reasons, is helping social services in the State such an abhorrent thing?Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-658571622694920202009-10-13T23:46:12.966+02:002009-10-13T23:46:12.966+02:00the reality is that with passage of time , tzaha...the reality is that with passage of time , tzahal becomes more and more a dati leumi endeavour, to the exclusion of leftists and haredim....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-31220028225769092582009-10-13T23:25:28.426+02:002009-10-13T23:25:28.426+02:00chop suey: they are against military service in t...chop suey: <i>they are against military service in the territories...whether or not you agree with their stance, as members of your society they have a right to speak out against it.</i><br /><br />Apparently, you didn't read Jameel's post, or <a href="http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3788962,00.html" rel="nofollow">the article</a> he cited. Refusing to serve in the "territories" is passe -- these students are refusing to serve in the IDF <i>at all</i>, in any capacity whatsoever. And just to make sure there's no room left for doubt, their written statement explicitly says, "in the occupied territories <b>and within the state of Israel</b>".Lurkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02712938121915827845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-53809881420507301352009-10-13T22:58:35.291+02:002009-10-13T22:58:35.291+02:00YB: As in the totally amazing, stunning success of...YB: As in the totally amazing, stunning success of a peace agreement when we left Gaza?<br /><br />(Or the following disgraceful treatment of Israelis from Gaza, thrown out of their homes?)<br /><br />The IDF is about fighting our enemies -- not political shtuyot. The Police exist for that.Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-76439438193651925692009-10-13T21:24:22.626+02:002009-10-13T21:24:22.626+02:00I presume those members of Bnei Akiva signing the ...I presume those members of Bnei Akiva signing the second letter against the evasion of Army service for ideological reasons, will faithfully follow orders when told to remove settlers and settlements as part of a peace agreement... <br /><br />Yellow BoyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-3433150110913506502009-10-13T19:03:11.249+02:002009-10-13T19:03:11.249+02:00they are against military service in the territori...they are against military service in the territories...whether or not you agree with their stance, as members of your society they have a right to speak out against it.<br /><br />I'm not familiar with the details of national service...but I thought men can only do it if they have a physical disability, and women if they are religious.<br /><br />-chop sueyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-73190368020364875362009-10-13T18:40:05.433+02:002009-10-13T18:40:05.433+02:00If leftists don't want to defend Israel, buy a...If leftists don't want to defend Israel, buy a one way ticket for them to a country of their own choice. Israel does not need enemies within who undermine by word and deed, its very existence.NormanFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03365459073293643108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-7391334780039928152009-10-13T15:49:56.117+02:002009-10-13T15:49:56.117+02:00How about we give them what they want? Let the ar...How about we give them what they want? Let the army give them a profile of "0" and let them go their merry way.yehuditnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-7244193567597208082009-10-13T15:28:00.149+02:002009-10-13T15:28:00.149+02:00Why can't they at least perform national servi...<i>Why can't they at least perform national service?</i><br /><br />Because then nobody would pay any attention to them?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com