tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post4308373786691387872..comments2024-03-27T07:01:13.725+02:00Comments on The Muqata: Israel On the BrinkJameel @ The Muqatahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comBlogger85125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-57797644457000224852010-06-20T20:09:49.613+03:002010-06-20T20:09:49.613+03:00The line "If the Chareidim ever felt alienate...The line "If the Chareidim ever felt alienated before, sending 44 families to jail will be a brutal slap in the face." is absurd. The Ashkenazi Hasidim have worked very hard to alienate everyone esle, not only by insisting on living in extremely homogenous societies, but by carrying on the ways they brought with them from Europe with little tolerance for anything else. Besides that, they outwardly scorn the state and its institutions, and become involved politically only to see that their own interests are served. They have given a clear message of - leave us alone!Chaynnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-72113411949427862082010-06-20T17:13:15.963+03:002010-06-20T17:13:15.963+03:00An excellent comment, to which I have linked
Point...An excellent comment, to which I have linked<br />Point of No Return blogbataweenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15829104245735619972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-60110015490067860182010-06-19T23:58:11.559+03:002010-06-19T23:58:11.559+03:00These "tracks" are nothing but cliques a...<i>These "tracks" are nothing but cliques and promote snobbery, but snobbery should not be a crime.</i><br /><br />Israel needs to be able to tolerate differences, even snobs and elitism, while trying to ensure its no discriminatory.Jameelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-44204636461769738922010-06-19T02:37:41.250+03:002010-06-19T02:37:41.250+03:00I went to a public high school over 40 years ago. ...I went to a public high school over 40 years ago. There were also "tracks" at that high school. There was a "track" for math/science, a "track" for visual arts, a "track" for music and performing arts, and in order to enroll in any "track" you had to show an aptitude, a minimum GPA to get into the math/science track, a portfolio for the visual arts "track" and audition for the music and performance "tracks"<br /><br />You can also bet the farm that the math geeks did not hang out with the artists, and the artists did not hang with the musicians and the thespians.<br /><br />These "tracks" are nothing but cliques and promote snobbery, but snobbery should not be a crime.Vicious Babushkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10842462287394910673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-8697481504817521102010-06-18T16:34:13.988+03:002010-06-18T16:34:13.988+03:00Interesting POV on the topic:
http://www.haaretz....Interesting POV on the topic:<br /><br />http://www.haaretz.com/magazine/week-s-end/a-man-where-there-are-no-men-1.296953Gilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13246089571573457394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-40179636772992871062010-06-18T01:13:53.854+03:002010-06-18T01:13:53.854+03:00"i hope american jews who support voucher pro..."i hope american jews who support voucher programs are watching this"<br /><br />i was thinking the same thing<br /><br /> With Justices who believe in a "living breathing Constitution" , the US courts can already do that just on the basis of the schools salt shakers<br /><br /><br />DovieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1104004511783800712010-06-18T01:11:02.568+03:002010-06-18T01:11:02.568+03:00Thank goodnees for theCourts to put an end to Isra...Thank goodnees for theCourts to put an end to Israels racist ,sexist homophobic policies.<br /> Today its schools tomorrow marriage!<br /> The corts will mandate ashkenazim marry Sephardim.<br /> Then they can mandate Jews marry Arabs.<br /> They can then force straights to marry gays.<br />Just think Jameel you can be forced to marry a shemale like the BeargirlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-32416370252098411802010-06-17T23:45:45.924+03:002010-06-17T23:45:45.924+03:00JAMEEL and BACCI40:
a kiddush hashem would have b...JAMEEL and BACCI40:<br /><br />a kiddush hashem would have been for rav elyashiv to ask the parents to continue sending their kids to the school.<br /><br />BACCI40:<br /><br />"i hope american jews who support voucher programs are watching this"<br /><br />i was thinking the same thingLion of Zionhttp://agmk.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-84412619315979990712010-06-17T23:39:07.427+03:002010-06-17T23:39:07.427+03:00JAMEEL:
the arrest of the parents is a footnote o...JAMEEL:<br /><br />the arrest of the parents is a footnote on a bigger issue and the haredim are using the arrest to detract from the bigger issue. (and you really think that if the parents weren't arrested and instead the school was closed or police sent to enforce intergration then there wouldn't have been a mass hafgana?)<br /><br />the 2 things i took from your post:<br /><br />1) the parents were unjustly arrested. well from a legal standpoint maybe yes, maybe no. but in any case i find it hard to be sympathetic toward parents who think their own children are so holy.(and what lesson do the kids take home that their parents pulled them out at the risk of going to jail rather than have them mix those who are different [i didn't say sefardi]?)<br /><br />b) this is a slap in the face of the haredim. so what? i can't believe that it's come to the point where a commenter above thinks that "if these protests were all non violent...it was a big kiddush hashem" and you resond "thank god" they were non-violent. when did frum jews holding a peaceful demonstration become a kiddush hashem?<br /><br />HYPOCRITE:<br /><br />what does one have to do with the other?<br /><br />i'm sure most of us here would be more than happy to see her in front of a firing squad rather under house arrest.Lion of Zionhttp://agmk.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-5249781398896494822010-06-17T23:00:08.095+03:002010-06-17T23:00:08.095+03:00To all those screaming to see the blood of Chareid...To all those screaming to see the blood of Chareidim, so you can dance as they spend 2 weeks in jail:<br /><br />Why is that when Anat Kamm commits espionage against the State of Israel, steals hundreds of top secret IDF documents and gives them to a Haaretz reporter, loses a disk worth of stolen documents and her actions directly threaten the lives of Israel's soldiers and citizens, <b>SHE WAS ONLY PUT UNDER HOUSE ARREST.</b><br /><br />And these parents you want jailed for 2 weeks?<br /><br />If you think these parents are more of a danger to the state of Israel and deserve WORSE treatment than a traitor like Anat Kamm, you're all sick.<br /><br />Shame on you.Hypocrite Bounty Hunternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-36648428506950625612010-06-17T22:57:36.329+03:002010-06-17T22:57:36.329+03:00Isn't it illegal to keep your kids from going ...Isn't it illegal to keep your kids from going to school and do nothing instead? Isn't that why they are being put in jail?E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-79577490888773692642010-06-17T22:45:01.358+03:002010-06-17T22:45:01.358+03:00Bacci40: The protests were all (thankfully) non vi...Bacci40: The protests were all (thankfully) non violent.<br /><br />LoZ: I was also disgusted when I heard that comment! (And I wrote that as well!) <br /><br />My main point is that I think its wrong to imprison parents over this.<br /><br />Want to close the school? Fine. <br /><br />Remove their funding? Fine. <br /><br />Have the police give protection for everyone to learn in the same class? Fine.<br /><br />Arrest the parents? I think that's encroachment on their personal civil liberties -- if they want to discriminate on their own dime, in a private school, then its their problem.<br /><br />(And yes, discrimination is wrong, and encroaches on others civil liberties, but 2 wrongs don't make a right and accomplishes nothing).Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-33635768650765398142010-06-17T22:15:36.324+03:002010-06-17T22:15:36.324+03:00i hope american jews who support voucher programs ...i hope american jews who support voucher programs are watching this<br /><br />this is what happens when you have secular state funding of religious schools<br /><br />however, this is the worst time to have fighting between charedi and the secular<br /><br />but if these protests were all non violent...it was a big kiddush hashemAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-22980229578875213972010-06-17T21:54:39.477+03:002010-06-17T21:54:39.477+03:00JAMEEL:
i always enjoy your posts even though i&#...JAMEEL:<br /><br />i always enjoy your posts even though i'm though too busy to comment recently. but i couln't stop shaking my head in disagreement as i read this one.<br /><br />i don't really have anything to add to the above comments, but i felt compelled to comment after reading this comment:<br /><br />"Our school in Bnei Brak has all sorts of different tracks which everyone agrees with. We have a track for girls whose parents work for a living...and a track for girls whose fathers are 'Bnei Torah'"<br /><br />my gosh. this proves to me just how screwed up the education system is in israel (from a social perspective). and it's not just about sephardim vs. ashkenazim or hasidim vs. non-hasidim. the whole system is just plain divisive.<br /><br />(btw, i think one of the first posts of yours that i ever commented on had to do a controversy over admissions in a school.)Lion of Zionhttp://agmk.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-47167121048748998602010-06-17T20:41:05.092+03:002010-06-17T20:41:05.092+03:00"The Slonim Rebbe decided that only the men f..."The Slonim Rebbe decided that only the men from each family should go and not the women; the court has not acknowledged this at all."<br /><br />And why should it? Why in the world should the civil court give a hoot what some rabbi says?<br /><br />This is the problem with Israel.<br /><br />Get a constitution. Agree that EVERYONE has to abide by the laws. And put civil recognition of public status issues into the hands of the civil authorities.Tzipporahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08807511259582331073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-49329887629920594942010-06-17T19:22:53.201+03:002010-06-17T19:22:53.201+03:00Jameel wrote (10am), However, the issue specifical...Jameel wrote (10am), <i>However, the issue specifically in question is the "Hassidic" track of the school, which has 75 girls in it, of which, 23 are Spehardi. To be in the Hassidic track, you need to agree to their Hassidic Ashkenazic chumrot. 23 girls in that track (and their parents) have agreed to those chumrot and behave as such.</i><br /><br />You're leaving out the fact that the Hasidic track was started specifically to separate the existing students from the newcomers. The first ruling months ago, or was it last year already?, was against the hasidic school, which erected a fence and separated the original students from the undesirables who stayed behind in the original school (or was the space divided in two? not sure). The ashkenazi chumrot were designed to keep out those sephardi girls, as I explained a few comments up.mother in israelhttp://amotherinisrael.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-848344072501079882010-06-17T18:47:22.457+03:002010-06-17T18:47:22.457+03:00JoeSettler - Yes it's a closed and unhealthy s...JoeSettler - <i>Yes it's a closed and unhealthy system, but it's how they choose to be. Isn't that their basic human right?</i><br /><br />No it is not. Especially not when others are paying for it ... and paying in more ways than one.Marknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-52287834467295894472010-06-17T18:40:36.541+03:002010-06-17T18:40:36.541+03:00Jameel - That's a far better a solution than i...Jameel - <i>That's a far better a solution than imprisoning 44 couples.</i><br /><br />I agree. Sending them to prison won't help the situation.<br /><br />A much better solution is to declare that no government funding will be sent to that school (or any other school that discriminates illegally or that refuses to permit public oversight).Marknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-50319352624404695452010-06-17T18:38:27.988+03:002010-06-17T18:38:27.988+03:00If anyone is interested, here's the SC decisio...If anyone is interested, here's the SC decision in English. <br /><br />http://elyon1.court.gov.il/files_eng/08/670/010/o24/08010670.o24.pdf<br /><br />I'm not a lawyer, but it seems reasonable. And reasonable people should have been able to deal with it.<br /><br />What I find fascinating, and it should be illustritive to people who decry how "secular" the court is, is this final comment in an amendment to the decision by Justice Melcer.<br /><br /><i>In closing, I think it is superfluous to mention that the school that is the focus of the petition is called Beit Yaakov. This name is derived from the well-known verse in the Book of Exodus, 19, 3 [45], which speaks of the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai. The verse says: ... thus you shall say to the house of Jacob (Heb. Beit Yaakov), and speak to the children of Israel.‘ Rabbi Shlomo Yitzhaki (Rashi) explains: Thus you shall say — in this language and in this order: to the house of Jacob (Beit Yaakov) — these are the women... and tell the children of Israel — the men.‘ From this we can see two things:<br /><br />(a) The Torah was given to women first (see: A. Weinroth, Feminism and Judaism (2001), at p. 58).<br />(b) In this verse, a distinction was only made between Beit Yaakov and the children of Israel, and it follows that any other or additional distinction, including in a school that bears the name Beit Yaakov, involves prohibited and improper discrimination.<br />We should remember and remind ourselves that the approach is that all the children of Jacob are equal. The Midrash states:<br /><br />Rabbi Yehoshua of Sachnin said in the name of Rabbi Levy: the names of the tribes are not given everywhere in the same order, but sometimes one order is used, and at other times another order is used, so that people will not say that because they are superior the names of the sons of the mistresses (i.e., Leah and Rachel) were given first, and the names of the sons of the maid-servants (i.e., Zilpah and Bilhah) were given afterwards, thereby teaching you that they are all equal.<br />(Midrash Sechel Tov (Buber edition), Exodus, Introduction [46]).</i>Michael Lipkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11501487897038161582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-81563647142571581242010-06-17T17:58:10.939+03:002010-06-17T17:58:10.939+03:00e-man and MII: "Are you saying that because S...e-man and MII: "Are you saying that because Sephardim accept the chumrot, they are discriminating against those that don't? Should a private school be entitled to have its own admission standards?"<br /><br />The question is this. Imagine two girls of ashkenazi and sephardi background who are exactly the same in terms of religious observance. They both apply to the school. Do they have an equal chance of getting in? Will the school flip a coin? <br />If they reject the sephardi girl reads with a taf and not a saf, it's discrimination. If they reject her because her grandparents have a TV, it's discrimination. These are all excuses. When all of the excuses "happen" to apply to the sephardi girls, and never apply, and are never used, against ashkenazi girls, it's discrimination. End of story. They will let in a certain number of the best sephardi children, to "prove" that they don't discriminate (and I am surprised that you quoted that argument as "proof"). <br /><br />Can anyone say with a straight face that an Ashkenazi and sephardi girls' chances of getting in are exactly the same? And before you say that it's an ashkenazi school, who decided that the beit yaakov in Emanuel should be only for ashkenazim? <br /><br />There are many cases of minorities who go along with the majority's discriminatory policies. Why shouldn't they, if they are benefiting from their kids being in the "right" school. Why should they protest? My take:<br />http://www.amotherinisrael.com/parents-emanuel-bet-yaakov-students-set-jail/<br />Read Rafi's take, <br />http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com/2010/06/qotd_17.html<br />and the comment thread for anecdotes about sephardim who changed their names to get their kids into yeshiva.mother in israelhttp://amotherinisrael.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-86110038287294765572010-06-17T17:35:40.160+03:002010-06-17T17:35:40.160+03:00Abbi: The stated comparison with the Supreme Court...Abbi: The stated comparison with the Supreme Court was about quotas or representation, not about segregation.<br /><br />AFAIK, the BY school in Emmanuel has an open policy to Sephardim with no quota for the general (not-Chassidic) track.<br /><br />The issue of eradicating elitism through the judiciary is impossible and wrong.<br /><br />All the Chassidim will do "legally" is open their own school next year, privately funded, and you can be sure they won't let anyone near the school who they think is different than them.<br /><br />That will not have fundamentally resolved anything, let alone the elitism, except that the school won't be State funded.<br /><br />Avrohom's does make a very valid point, that Ashkeanzi supremacy has led to crazy demands, including giving up Sephardi customs and adopting the Ashkenazi Charedi customs.<br /><br />However, the blame ALSO lies with the Sephardi Chareidi establishment.<br /><br />Even R' Ovadia Yosef now has his Ashkenazi clothing and black hat. The Porat Yosef yeshiva is full of sephardi students that wear black hats and even try to accent their Hebrew with Yiddish. Black hats have absolutely nothing to do with Sephardic culture, yet they are adopted to fit in, due to Ashkenazi supremacy.<br /><br />Putting all the blame on these 44 families and imprisoning them is simply wrong.<br /><br />Avi: I think I'll call you about this since Ive got no more time to type now ;-)Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-49072113971392752812010-06-17T17:17:04.898+03:002010-06-17T17:17:04.898+03:00The fact that there are Sephardim in the school do...The fact that there are Sephardim in the school does not prove that its not a racial discrimination issue. In order to get accepted to the school they had to give up there sephardi customs and adopt the Ashkenazi Charedi customs.Thats a very sad result of the many years of Ashkenazi supremism in the Chareidi world, witch made them realize that inorder to be a "real" Charedi you have to give up the ways of your ancestors and adopt ours.<br />Thats pretty racist in my opinion.Avrohomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-37788114843456468752010-06-17T17:15:49.105+03:002010-06-17T17:15:49.105+03:00Comparing the supreme court to elementary schools ...Comparing the supreme court to elementary schools is absolutely fallacious. One has absolutely nothing to do with another. In an case, as far as I know, the Sephardi supreme court judge is no required to eat in a separate dining room or use a separate toilet.<br /><br />All BY's have quotas, ask any random charedi on the street and they'll confirm it. Just as in the Civil Rights era in the US, the charedim have a vicious streak of racism that has to be eradicated judicially, just as it was in the US. Would you be siding with George Wallace instead of MLK if you were blogging then? Frightening to even imagine.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-25689665353536619152010-06-17T16:43:02.112+03:002010-06-17T16:43:02.112+03:00Fraggin bullpoop, who is the one to judge and deci...Fraggin bullpoop, who is the one to judge and decide "level of religiousness of their families" ?!<br /><br />And even if pupils families are not religious - they have a right to pay and send their girls in school which will teach them how to "raise above their parents" if they look at it that way. <br /><br />Even if that school becomes private company and set on "education market" - then it's services have to be available to everybody who wants to pay for it.Auunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-65008537902773054342010-06-17T16:42:25.321+03:002010-06-17T16:42:25.321+03:00Hi Seth! Great to hear from you!
I have alot to ...Hi Seth! Great to hear from you!<br /><br />I have alot to reply -- will get back to this soon.Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.com