tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post4879434656537585910..comments2024-03-10T08:13:34.023+02:00Comments on The Muqata: Frum Olympian Girl who Kicks BoysJameel @ The Muqatahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comBlogger83125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-8263019547536235552008-10-07T19:42:00.000+02:002008-10-07T19:42:00.000+02:00Uh and the reason a skirt can't be worn over the p...Uh and the reason a skirt can't be worn over the pants...?<BR/><BR/>O whatever. <BR/><BR/>Now's a great time to be judgin others favorably...respecting rabbis..coming closer to Gd...learning from others..the sabrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07134516234799909775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-75526429219570281472008-10-07T05:58:00.000+02:002008-10-07T05:58:00.000+02:00No, they'd tell you that if you'd really have fait...No, they'd tell you that if you'd really have faith in G-d, you'd wear a skirt. ;-)Ookamikunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01145237927656807738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-16182068738231084622008-10-07T05:45:00.000+02:002008-10-07T05:45:00.000+02:00I like the comment from Steg (above) who said'i th...I like the comment from Steg (above) who said<BR/><BR/>'i think the appropriate response is "you go girl" :-P'<BR/><BR/>BTW, I got a job teaching in a village where the temperature was often -40 (yes, negative 40) and often I had to climb over 6 foot high snowbanks to get to work. I hope the rabbis would be OK with my wearing pants! (The only time I saw anyone in a skirt was at a wedding and the graduation.)The Northernmost Jewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17116602658745447508noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-51534909104107237592008-08-13T19:19:00.000+03:002008-08-13T19:19:00.000+03:00Everyone, stop arguing!After much research, I have...Everyone, stop arguing!<BR/><BR/>After much research, I have finally resolved the question of what sort of thing is to be called a <I>kiddush Hashem</I>, as well as what is to be called a <I>chilul Hashem</I>.<BR/><BR/>The answer can be found <A HREF="http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/DVR68aflights.htm" REL="nofollow">here</A>.<BR/><BR/>There, now you know what a real <I>kiddush Hashem</I> is.Lurkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05516196101946513020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1666396469066109172008-08-13T04:14:00.000+03:002008-08-13T04:14:00.000+03:00semantics? sorry, i see this as slightly more imp...semantics? sorry, i see this as slightly more important than that.<BR/><BR/>Why?<BR/><BR/>I feel that it waters down the term and allows for many things that have no business being associated with it to be simply labeled as though they do.<BR/><BR/>It is from the highest (and conversely the lowest) things that one can accomplish and it gets tossed around w/o thought.<BR/><BR/>It's wrong in my opinion - plain and simple.<BR/>That people do it and it has become accepted holds little value to me.<BR/><BR/>Like I said, it just makes it something else.Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08512231582715592098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-9575137987934396322008-08-12T20:21:00.000+03:002008-08-12T20:21:00.000+03:00Maybe if you attended the annual MLA [Modern Langu...Maybe if you attended the annual MLA [Modern Language Association] convention, you'd find pple who enjoy semantic discussions. Most pple don't really enjoy them. <BR/><BR/>Also, you're attempt to "take issue" with one topic hasn't really illuminated or enlightened that issue. All you've highlighted is that, really according to the sources, kiddush/chillul Hashem only applies within Am Yisrael. So what? If Hashem's name is elevated among non-Jews in addition to Jews, why does this matter?<BR/><BR/>Basically you're peeved by the accepted, colloquial understanding of the terms, and it's unclear to me as to why- corny factor? Too many Hanoch Teller stories? Not sure. In any case, most people who read this story feel proud of her and feel she elevates Hashem's name in the world, which is enough for them.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-79529009772667812412008-08-12T18:57:00.000+03:002008-08-12T18:57:00.000+03:00"Pathetic" he types.Not sure why this has touched ..."Pathetic" he types.<BR/><BR/>Not sure why this has touched such a sensitive nerve. At no point did i state that this <I>was not</I> or <I>could not</I> be a Kiddush Hashem. Nor did I say anything disparaging of the young lady involved. I simply questioned the idea that it was a forgone conclusion that this is and/or would be a Kiddush Hashem.<BR/><BR/>That question gets even murkier when it is unclear as to what the definition of the term is, not to mention how one measures it being accomplished.<BR/><BR/>Again, I am not sure why it is so diffucult to be able to seperate taking issue with one point of a topic without doing away with its entirety.Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08512231582715592098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-47311367976464551132008-08-12T15:33:00.000+03:002008-08-12T15:33:00.000+03:00G: Your pet peeve is simply pathetic.Would you say...G: Your pet peeve is simply pathetic.<BR/><BR/>Would you say that Sandy Koufax's refusal to play in the first game of the 1965 World Series baseball because it fell Yom Kippur -- was not a kiddush Hashem?<BR/><BR/>Despite not being religious, his action inspired a generation of Jewish youngsters -- and impressed the importance of their Jewish heritage. Why would that not be a Kiddush Hashem?<BR/><BR/>BTW - in every article I've read about Bat-El, they mention that she always walks to events on Shabbat and is staunchly Kosher and she only brings her own food with her when Kosher food isn't available.Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-15866763410733564432008-08-12T15:22:00.000+03:002008-08-12T15:22:00.000+03:00Granted.-pet peeveGranted.<BR/><BR/>-pet peeveGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08512231582715592098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-82185709308630545952008-08-12T08:38:00.000+03:002008-08-12T08:38:00.000+03:00G, you're playing a silly of semantics. Even if yo...G, you're playing a silly of semantics. Even if you found a stack of sources proving otherwise , the excepted colloquial definition of chillul/kiddush Hashem today is behaving in ways that either desecrate/bring honor to Hashem while presenting oneself as a frum Jew (however one defines this frumkeit)to both Jews and non-Jews. You might not believe this is "correct" but that's really irrelevant since most frum pple today understand/accept this definition. Most pple's first reaction when they hear of a financial scandal perpetrated by a frum Jew is not "How terrible but at least technically it's not a real chillul Hashem". It's "Wow, what a terrible chillul Hashem". Because it's clearly, someone who is representing a community of God desecrated His name. The technicality of Jews vs. nonJews doesn't lessen this desecration.<BR/><BR/>This is not the first time that terms may take on different colloquial meanings than the original sources intended and it's certainly won't be the last.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-19685058974684719772008-08-12T00:58:00.000+03:002008-08-12T00:58:00.000+03:00"But if you ask an MO rav, most likely, he would t..."But if you ask an MO rav, most likely, he would tell you that a skirt is more in keeping with halacha"-HH<BR/><BR/>There are a whole host of things that would be more "in keeping with halacha" that are not practiced by many people who call themselves OJ. It is a social club where people pick and choose which halachot apparently bring about "kiddush hashem." My sense is that too many who have been commenting here believe that because this 20 year old athlete wears pants, we can't exaggerate her piousness to the point of believing that she could be a kiddush hashem. Not to mention the comment about a Jew of another denomination. . .<BR/><BR/>So many judges of so many people. Now that does not seem to be in keeping with halacha either. . .but I wouldn't know halacha, I am not an OJ.TikunOlamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05640691410118934075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-91941252692997287272008-08-11T21:12:00.000+03:002008-08-11T21:12:00.000+03:00Off the top of my head I only remember the pasuk w...Off the top of my head I only remember the pasuk we learn Chillul Hashem out from: vyikra 22:32<BR/><BR/>וְלֹא תְחַלְּלוּ, אֶת-שֵׁם קָדְשִׁי, וְנִקְדַּשְׁתִּי, בְּתוֹךְ בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל: אֲנִי יְהוָה, מְקַדִּשְׁכֶם. <BR/><BR/>And ye shall not profane My holy name; but I will be hallowed <B>among the children of Israel:</B> I am the LORD who hallow you, <BR/><BR/>I will go back and find the original sources from Gemarah (I believe Sanhedrin) and the Rambam (Sefer Hamitzvot & Hilchos Yesodei Hatorah) that talk in more detail about Kiddush Hashem.Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08512231582715592098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-76079241458362994992008-08-11T20:28:00.000+03:002008-08-11T20:28:00.000+03:00"of course, the next argument would be "would I sa..."of course, the next argument would be "would I say the same about the public demonstration of sincerity by Reform/Conservative?" That's a good question but if what they are showing sincerity to isn't halacha then no. This may sound like a double standard but where the target's starting point makes a difference.)"-DTC<BR/><BR/>Whoa. And what is the "starting point here?" What exactly is your point here altogether?TikunOlamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05640691410118934075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-43613207278625476842008-08-11T16:14:00.000+03:002008-08-11T16:14:00.000+03:00G,Do you have sources for your definition?G,<BR/><BR/>Do you have sources for your definition?rockofgalileehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07939653236475167491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-14954907465627172092008-08-11T16:13:00.000+03:002008-08-11T16:13:00.000+03:00G: Well ok - can you please state your definition ...G: Well ok - can you please state your definition of Kiddush Hashem, along with sources, and why it is disconnected from the eyes of the secular beholder?Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-70705233730212436242008-08-11T15:46:00.000+03:002008-08-11T15:46:00.000+03:00If "Chilul Hashem" seems directed at viewing G-d a...<I>If "Chilul Hashem" seems directed at viewing G-d and the Jewish negatively, as a result of inappropriate action or non-action by Jews, then wouldn't the flip-side of Kiddush Hashem be equally applied?</I><BR/><BR/>I am sorry but no. Unless said act results in said outcome by Jews then there is no issue of Chillul Hashem...that doesn't make it any better, it just makes it something else!<BR/><BR/><I>Kiddush Hashem has everything to do with the way we are seen by the secular world.</I><BR/><BR/>Again I am sorry but that is incorrect, and the source you brought does nothing to prove otherwise if you read it carefully.<BR/><BR/>All of your other points are well taken and make for a very nice, cool, proud etc story.<BR/><BR/>They MAY also lead to a Kiddush Hashem as outlined by LOZ.<BR/><BR/>Yet to simply redefine the term and throw it around willy nilly is incorrect.<BR/><BR/>The story is what it is, why is that not enough? It does not need to be what it is not in order to be <I>something</I>.Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08512231582715592098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-30732131303059636592008-08-11T08:32:00.000+03:002008-08-11T08:32:00.000+03:00Interesting conversation.Interesting site.Thank yo...Interesting conversation.<BR/>Interesting site.<BR/>Thank you.<BR/>(I linked via Seraphic Secret.)<BR/>Did anyone find the Reb Moshe reference?<BR/>I would be fascinated to know if allowed women to wear pants while skiing or when otherwise necessary.<BR/><BR/>Be well,Moishe3rdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03542878812018612584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-81912299392255775862008-08-11T08:16:00.000+03:002008-08-11T08:16:00.000+03:00The REAL question is: which will be harder: winnin...The REAL question is: which will be harder: winning the gold... or finding a shidduch? LOLAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-9635930380644160372008-08-10T17:15:00.000+03:002008-08-10T17:15:00.000+03:00Interestingly enough, the quote in the interview w...Interestingly enough, the quote in the interview was that she did not see "negiah" as being problematic in a kicking match and there are shitot going all the way back to the Rambam in support of that idea (and, yes, others that would still deem it unacceptable, but one assumes that she is relying on the literature that considers touching that is clearly not derech chibah to be mutar). She never says anything about pants or, if she does, it is never directly stated in the interview. So we don't really know on whom she is relying or why. She does say that it was really hard to incorporate the two, but she feels like she managed to do so. Kudos to her!Lizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15086911164698842776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-34938773515698973552008-08-10T13:21:00.000+03:002008-08-10T13:21:00.000+03:00Backwards thinking.Backwards thinking.the sabrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07134516234799909775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-76321260258964644832008-08-10T00:02:00.000+03:002008-08-10T00:02:00.000+03:00G: Regarding Kiddush Hashem and the secular world....G: Regarding Kiddush Hashem and the secular world...<BR/><BR/><I>Devarim Rabbah 3:3, "Once, Rabbi Shimon ben Shetach bought a donkey from an Arab. His students went and found a precious stone hanging around [the donkey's] neck. Rebbi said to him 'It is the blessing of God that enriches.' R. Shimon ben Shetach said to him 'I bought a donkey. I did not buy a precious stone.' He went and returned it to the Arab and the Arab said 'Blessed is the God of Shimon ben Shetach.'"</I><BR/><BR/>Kiddush Hashem has everything to do with the way we are seen by the secular world.<BR/><BR/>When a Jewish astronaut demonstrates any connection to Judaism for the whole planet to see, that is a Kiddush Hashem.<BR/><BR/>When a Jewish ballplayer does not play on Yom Kippur, that is a Kiddush Hashem.<BR/><BR/>When an Jewish Olympian is concerned enough about her Shabbat observance to inquire in advance if there are any games to be played on shabbat, and when she is the only kosher-observing Olympian in the Beijing Olympics -- how is that NOT a kiddush hashem?<BR/><BR/>Is she the perfect bas-yisrael role model? That depends on your worldview.<BR/><BR/>There is no way the Chareidi world would view her as a role model, but I'm not Chareidi.<BR/><BR/>By someone going to the Olympics and bringing kosher food with her, not playing on shabbat (which she clearly said she is not going, because none of her matches are on shabbat), this is very noteworthy and positive.<BR/><BR/>Maybe someone will see this and say - "keeping kosher is important enough for her...maybe it should be for me as well"<BR/><BR/>Look at the bright side -- at least she's not in the swimming competition...Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-39275293679498678022008-08-09T23:37:00.000+03:002008-08-09T23:37:00.000+03:00Again, a Kiddush Hashem has nothing to do with "pe...<I><BR/>Again, a Kiddush Hashem has nothing to do with "people" at large. It is only in respect to other jews.</I><BR/><BR/>Really? If "Chilul Hashem" seems directed at viewing G-d and the Jewish negatively, as a result of inappropriate action or non-action by Jews, then wouldn't the flip-side of Kiddush Hashem be equally applied?Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-38095591932926483032008-08-09T23:27:00.000+03:002008-08-09T23:27:00.000+03:00"Even among the small portion of Orthodox women wh..."Even among the small portion of Orthodox women who wear pants, most would say that they must be very loose-fitting pants. I'd hesitate to put these in that category (and she's wearing tight jeans in the clip of her elsewhere)."<BR/>Ezzie<BR/><BR/>Many dati leumi here (Israel) also wear pants. "Orthodox" and "Haredi" are not mutually inclusive. <BR/><BR/>Regarding the kiddush hashem thing--let me see...the other day I read about a modesty patrol beating up a woman in Maalot Dafna. This girl, and her community's acceptance of her, is a pleasant and very public reminder that not everyone in Orthodoxy follows the Taliban role model. It may not help bring anyone back to Judaism, but it may mitigate some of the "anti" sentiment.Gilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13246089571573457394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-62933805593677434422008-08-09T02:31:00.000+03:002008-08-09T02:31:00.000+03:00>Ezzie, get a clue - there is a whole world out...>Ezzie, get a clue - there is a whole world outside of the ones in which women wear long skirts that is accepted by a whole section of the OJ world as "MO."<BR/><BR/>Tikkun Olam, personally, I don't really care if OJ's wear pants (as long as its modest), but most MO's accept this because they have no choice. They know their community and know their capablities and are not going to start giving mussar about it. But if you ask an MO rav, most likely, he would tell you that a skirt is more in keeping with halachaHoly Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-91153174672201516552008-08-08T20:38:00.000+03:002008-08-08T20:38:00.000+03:00G:Actually, you're right. The term Kiddush Hashem...G:<BR/><BR/>Actually, you're right. The term Kiddush Hashem would technically not be applicable for this case regarding non Jews. (we use the term colloquially all the time but every now and then a time comes where you have to be specific.)<BR/><BR/>The correct way to say it would be that someone who is respected by the non Jewish world for being a Torah observant Jew would be fullfilling "L'taken Olam B'Malchut Sha-kai". That's the real definition of Tikkun Olam. <BR/><BR/>Therefore, the post is left with two questions:<BR/>1) Is this kiddush hashem?<BR/>2) Is this tikkun olam?DTChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452671110209029524noreply@blogger.com