tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post5351319507367285060..comments2024-03-27T07:01:13.725+02:00Comments on The Muqata: Voting Rights- Should American Jews Be Given a VoteJameel @ The Muqatahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-57517360579934087352008-10-24T14:45:00.000+02:002008-10-24T14:45:00.000+02:00I await your input with baited breath.I await your input with baited breath.Esser Agarothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-31121600238298700772008-10-22T22:54:00.000+02:002008-10-22T22:54:00.000+02:00"They use the term as a slur, but very few of them..."They use the term as a slur, but very few of them really understands what it means to be a socialist."<BR/><BR/>I'm sure the CEOs of AIG, Fannie Mae and Fredde Mac would be happy to explain what it means to be a socialist!Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-60450218136902158462008-10-22T21:44:00.000+02:002008-10-22T21:44:00.000+02:00In addition, most expats have lived in both countr...<I>In addition, most expats have lived in both countries for enough time to have a handle on the issues. </I><BR/><BR/>I have serious doubts about that, but I don't know how to accurately measure this.<BR/><BR/>I'll readily admit that I don't think that most people are very well informed at all on the issues. That is not directed at you, just a comment in general.<BR/><BR/>Many people call Obama a socialist. They use the term as a slur, but very few of them really understands what it means to be a socialist.<BR/><BR/>It is part of crowd think.Jack Steinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16625864271071630940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-44114712968954339152008-10-22T17:17:00.000+02:002008-10-22T17:17:00.000+02:00Jack, I am not exercising my right to vote because...Jack, I am not exercising my right to vote because I am concerned about Obama's views on Israel - I am concerned about his views on every issue concerning the US. I still have good friends living in America, and I am worried about them.<BR/><BR/>In addition, most expats have lived in both countries for enough time to have a handle on the issues. I personally keep up with the news /blogs in America and know what is happening there, and feel that I can make an informed decision.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-47587537529163245242008-10-22T11:22:00.000+02:002008-10-22T11:22:00.000+02:00OK, just joining this thread for the first time (h...OK, just joining this thread for the first time (had a busy chag :)<BR/><BR/>While I've been here for 18 years, I don't think Ive ever exercised my right to vote in a US election. <BR/><BR/>Personally, my vote would be irrelevant, since I'm not from a swing state -- and since absentee ballots are only used if there's an exact tie (and I'm not from a Florida-type state), then my vote would never be used.<BR/><BR/>That said, I don't believe that dual citizenship means lack of loyalty to Israel. Israel is my primary (and only) residence -- but as an American citizen, I file with the IRS every year. Some years after living here, I even paid quite a bit of taxes to the US (much more than to Israel) because my income was coming from the US. <BR/><BR/>As long as I'm actively a US citizen (and filing taxes every year is a perfect example) then I don't have a problem with voting...if I actually wanted to.<BR/><BR/>Will address Ben-Yehuda's comments later :)Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-13362561710869005822008-10-22T11:01:00.000+02:002008-10-22T11:01:00.000+02:00Around 1% of Americans live outside of America. I ...Around 1% of Americans live outside of America. <BR/><BR/>I suspect something like 10% of Israelis live outside of Israel (but have no hard data on that number).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-7503799855461913242008-10-21T22:37:00.000+02:002008-10-21T22:37:00.000+02:00A typo. I meant: Israelis and non-Israelis are su...A typo. I meant: Israelis and non-Israelis are subject to tax at varying rates on their Israeli-source income. <BR/><BR/>The varying rates applicable to non-Israelis are as based on applicable tax treaties.Gilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13246089571573457394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-60829483432119976312008-10-21T22:34:00.000+02:002008-10-21T22:34:00.000+02:00>>that expat Israelis are required to contri...>>that expat Israelis are required to contribute to ביתוח לאומי (betuach leumi/national health insurance) during time they live overseas<< <BR/><BR/>I do not believe that this is entirely correct. My understanding is that they don't have to...but if they move back they either have to make up some amount for the missed time or go through a waiting period. I believe that this was a response to people abusing the system. Bear in mind that Bituach Leumi is equivalent to Social Security (pension/insurance) and not income taxes. Here, the issue is that if you don't pay in, you cannot take out. <BR/><BR/>Regarding voting--I am with Risa. I am not voting in the US elections because I do not live there and feel that those living in the US have the right to determine what sort of government they want--even if it is not to my own personal advantage. <BR/><BR/>As for allowing Jews overseas to vote, I am casting my support with the "contributions does not buy the right to vote" argument. If you do not live here and you are not going to have to really pay the price for your decisions, stay out of our elections!<BR/><BR/>Regarding Israeli ex-pats...the tax argument is not applicable here. Unlike ex-pat Americans who are required to continue paying taxes, Israelis living abroad are not required to pay taxes on their non-Israeli-source income. (Israelis and non-Israelis are subject to tax at varying rates and on their Israeli-source income). <BR/><BR/>I think it also bears consideration that the relative numbers are very different. The ratio of US ex-pats to US residents is undoubtedly much lower than the Israeli ex-pats to Israeli residents. Sending the vote abroad is pretty much akin to giving up control. Sorry, but why should an armchair Zionist be able to send Israeli boys off to their deaths or make decisions that will make it easier for terrorists to attack civilians while he and his family sit safely on thier asses in the States or Canada or where ever? With rights come responsibilities. If you are not willing to take on the responsibilities with all of their associated costs...you do not get the rights. <BR/><BR/>I suspect that many of those who bring up this idea have this idea that it will help strengthen the rifht. I think it also bears noting that while the hard-core, "carpet-bomb" Aza brigade is noisiest, there is undoubtedly a large pool of Jews around the world who will rush to vote for more left candidates. Remember, the majority of Jews are not Orthodox. I suspect that many of them, even those who are not far left, would be quite happy to vote for a complete withdrawal from the shtachim. And then what? <BR/><BR/>In other words: keep the decision making local.Gilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13246089571573457394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-5281168273890588902008-10-20T15:22:00.000+02:002008-10-20T15:22:00.000+02:00You may not be able to say which candidate will be...You may not be able to say which candidate will be good for Israel, but we already know which candidate will be unquestionably bad for Israel.<BR/><BR/>Obama has made it clear that he doesn't view the State of Israel or the Jewish people as having any (historical, religious, or security) rights to large parts our national homeland and Jerusalem, and that the Arab enemy is justified in continuing to attack us, and their primary question is if it is productive for them to do so (will they succeed in throwing us out from our national homeland through violence).<BR/><BR/>That is an objectively bad starting point for the President of the United States.<BR/><BR/>I wrote about it <A HREF="http://joesettler.blogspot.com/2008/09/evil-son.html" REL="nofollow">here</A> and <A HREF="http://joesettler.blogspot.com/2008/07/nobama.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-43566006974947924482008-10-20T10:41:00.000+02:002008-10-20T10:41:00.000+02:00Ben-Yehuda,What Abbi said.When you can answer my c...Ben-Yehuda,<BR/><BR/>What Abbi said.<BR/><BR/>When you can answer my comments without being insulting and juvenile, I'll try to respond to yours. (Although I guess if you don't want people who don't think like you voting on your poll, that's a pretty good indication to me that I shouldn't even bother.)<BR/><BR/>Chag Sameach y'all!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-45377499170503628702008-10-20T10:02:00.000+02:002008-10-20T10:02:00.000+02:00AJW, It is our role as a people to work to make To...AJW, It is our role as a people to work to make Torah the reality in this world.<BR/><BR/>Let us first begin with the basics:<BR/><BR/>1. Halacha does not equal customs. You know that, but a lot of Jews unfortunately confuse the two,...often.<BR/><BR/>2. The is no dispute about keeping Shabbath and not eating pork, rabbit, camel, etc. These things have no business being granted as "rights" in the Almighty State of Israel.<BR/><BR/>3. Yeah, there are a lot of details to work out, but not exempt from putting our efforts into moving toward that goal.<BR/><BR/>4. According to whom? When we have a Sanhedrin which is accepted in Israel, that will be the final {or beginning} point in unifying and delineating the various opinions represented in your comment.Esser Agarothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-56782643473246305052008-10-20T06:05:00.000+02:002008-10-20T06:05:00.000+02:00BY:Halacha according to who? ... so many interpret...BY:<BR/><BR/>Halacha according to who? ... so many interpretations, customs, etc., ... black hat vs furry hat vs knitted kippah vs black suede kippah, sefardim vs ashkenzim, burkha wearing women vs shaven bald women vs wig wearing vs headcovering vs no headcover ... truly Halacha according to WHO?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-58163143604333143802008-10-20T01:55:00.000+02:002008-10-20T01:55:00.000+02:00One more thing, your comment about countries not b...<I>One more thing, your comment about countries not being friends, rather allies is soooo true. It's why you can't really say that either of the candidates will be 'good' for Israel. It depends what is in their interests.</I><BR/><BR/>Risa,<BR/><BR/>I meant to comment on this earlier. Too many people misunderstand the difference.Jack Steinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16625864271071630940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-28565407039257138592008-10-20T01:54:00.000+02:002008-10-20T01:54:00.000+02:00Zahava,I am not suggesting that we review the curr...Zahava,<BR/><BR/>I am not suggesting that we review the current standards for voting eligibility. Sometimes there isn't a need to tweak the system.<BR/><BR/>But it is worth discussing. I do wonder about some expats and their voting.<BR/><BR/>I make no bones about my position on the ignorance of many voters. I wish that more people were better informed about the issues.<BR/><BR/>This is not to say that they would necessarily vote the way that I want them to, but I'd feel better about it.<BR/><BR/>As for expats there are legitimate questions about whether they are up to speed on the major issues that affect those of us who still live here.<BR/><BR/>I am not saying that your right to vote should be removed, just that I question what some expats do with it.Jack Steinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16625864271071630940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-76173232046034739492008-10-19T20:51:00.000+02:002008-10-19T20:51:00.000+02:00ben yehudah- when you use the phrase "end of discu...ben yehudah- when you use the phrase "end of discussion" that's called, um, ending the discussion (or, in other words, curtailing the discussion).<BR/><BR/>English is your friend. Get to know it.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-61412489524914524352008-10-19T20:31:00.000+02:002008-10-19T20:31:00.000+02:00Jack: With all due respect, even if some expat vot...Jack: With all due respect, even if some expat voters vote from a single issue perspective (and I contend that most do not) which stems from their choice of residence, how is this different from a resident citizen participating in the electoral process from any other single-issue agenda (read: school-prayer; abortion; gay rights; ecology; etc.)?!<BR/><BR/>Under the current legal standard <B>all</B> US citizens who haven't otherwise forfeited their rights retain the right to exercise their say in the selection of government leaders via the vote. Are you suggesting that it is time to reevaluate the standard? If so, how do you propose to address the issue of representational taxation for expat citizens who continue to file and pay their US taxes?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06603416718186808398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-70297587786342457422008-10-19T18:14:00.000+02:002008-10-19T18:14:00.000+02:00nope, that wasn't me.BTW, I should explain that "G...nope, that wasn't me.<BR/><BR/>BTW, I should explain that "Gayley" is the name of a street in the Westwood neighborhood of Los Angeles, bordering the UCLA campus. I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea.<BR/><BR/>Don't forget. Everyone, please vote in my online poll. Only three days left.<BR/><BR/><B><I><A HREF="http://esseragaroth.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow">How should the pritzus problem during Simhath Beth HaShoevah be stopped?</A></I></B><BR/><BR/>Leftists welcome but not encouraged.<BR/><BR/>P. S. Jack, that was a clever diversion.... ;-}Esser Agarothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-67930316261895154912008-10-19T18:03:00.000+02:002008-10-19T18:03:00.000+02:00-President,Facial Expression Freedom AllianceYou w...<I>-President,<BR/>Facial Expression Freedom Alliance</I><BR/><BR/>You were the guy I used to see hanging out on Gayley.Westwood is just not the same anymore. ;)Jack Steinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16625864271071630940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-43118135998731341982008-10-19T18:01:00.000+02:002008-10-19T18:01:00.000+02:00Zahava,It is a sticky subject to address and one t...Zahava,<BR/><BR/>It is a sticky subject to address and one that will make people unhappy. I am always reluctant to discuss any sort of voting restrictions for citizens.<BR/><BR/>But there is a legitimate discussion about the role of expats in the vote. In a number of recent conversations I have heard many people talk about the best candidate for Israel.<BR/><BR/>I find that line of reasoning to be flawed and troubling. As I said I am Pro-Israel and I always am interested in doing things to support Israel.<BR/><BR/>But the best candidate for Israel may not be the best candidate for the U.S. as a whole. <BR/><BR/>Since I do not trust any of the US political parties to truly look out for Israel it makes it easier for me to make decisions.<BR/><BR/>Although I should add that congress is always going to play a large role in what happens, so a Dem/Repub POTUS is not the only influence here.<BR/><BR/>But going to back to the topic, the question that is being asked is whether expats interests are at odds with those who still reside within the U.S.<BR/><BR/>It is an uncomfortable topic.Jack Steinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16625864271071630940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-66696231511071692752008-10-19T17:51:00.000+02:002008-10-19T17:51:00.000+02:00Thank you for the clarification, but my point stil...Thank you for the clarification, but my point still stands.<BR/><BR/>Non Jews have no right to decide the fate of anything in the Land of Israel.<BR/><BR/>When the State violates halacha, it is wrong,...which means, it is wrong often.Esser Agarothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-14882842328174700002008-10-19T17:48:00.000+02:002008-10-19T17:48:00.000+02:00Never said you slammed anyone.I DO discriminate,.....Never said you slammed anyone.<BR/><BR/>I DO discriminate,...absolutely,...just as the Torah does,...often.<BR/><BR/>The difference between me and other so called RWRF {thanks for the helpful abbrev., btw}, is that I don't try to pretend otherwise.<BR/><BR/>How did I try to "curtail" you?<BR/><BR/>Personally, I'm surprised you didn't use the terms "marginalize me" and "silence my voice."<BR/><BR/>But perhaps those phrases are too "90's."<BR/><BR/>-President,<BR/>Facial Expression Freedom AllianceEsser Agarothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-83706198259721259642008-10-19T17:44:00.000+02:002008-10-19T17:44:00.000+02:00Also- re "State, Shmate" - Jack's discussion, if I...Also- re "State, Shmate" - Jack's discussion, if I understood correctly, was examining diaspora Jew's right to vote in Israeli elections. That, categorically, is more of an issue vis a vis Statehood than of biblical promises, and as such, renders my original question about who would constitute an elegible voter even more valid, IMHO.<BR/><BR/>Whew. Haven't gotten this frantic in the comments box in a while- quite tiring!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-73276732849976458072008-10-19T17:39:00.000+02:002008-10-19T17:39:00.000+02:00Ben Yehudah, sorry to labour a point, but...If you...Ben Yehudah, sorry to labour a point, but...<BR/><BR/>If you did actually check out my blog- I defy you to find anything slamming "Right Wing Torah Fanatics". You don't know me or who I hang around with (plenty of RWTFs, actually- who will tell you that I'm actually very nice and tolerant of pretty much everyone on all sides of all spectrums until they begin discriminating needlessly, lying, murdering etc. The usual.)<BR/><BR/>I also never said you weren't free to express whatever you want to: I was simply objecting to being curtailed in a public forum by someone who wasn't the blog owner.<BR/><BR/>Enough with the eye-rolling? ok? Cheers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-26792140533516424112008-10-19T17:09:00.000+02:002008-10-19T17:09:00.000+02:00I don't believe I was questioning your "r...I don't believe I was questioning your "right" to do anything.<BR/><BR/>If you have the "right" to express yourself, then so do I.<BR/><BR/>Oh, whoops, I forgot.<BR/><BR/>Right wing Torah fanatics don't have any rights in Medinat Yisrael.<BR/><BR/>My apologies. < eyes rolling >Esser Agarothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-58098341498244130752008-10-19T17:04:00.000+02:002008-10-19T17:04:00.000+02:00Ben-Yehudah,Moadim LeSimcha to you too. I've been ...Ben-Yehudah,<BR/><BR/>Moadim LeSimcha to you too. <BR/><BR/>I've been reading and commenting on the Muqata since the first post in 2005: I think Jameel (or Jack, in this case, as he wrote the post) reserves the right to tell me whether I am allowed to raise points in the discussion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com