Comments on The Muqata: Ramat Beit Shemesh Violence and The Burka Tramp

And Akiva (sorry for being late - stabbings at Shi...

2008-04-01T12:34:00.000+03:00

And Akiva (sorry for being late - stabbings at Shiloh Junction and all that), when I worked at Shaare Zedek Hospital in 1971 or 72, I was at Public Relations and at the time, the autopsy issue was in the news. A rumor spread that we were about to cut up a cadaver on our grounds and we were invaded by about 100 Hareidim. I stood on the side with a camera and fastest than you can say Moshe Rabeinu, I was surrounded by 20 of them, you know, the observant, black-coated, white-shirted, black-hatted variety. They lowered their hats over their faces and began kicking me. It hurt.

So, when I see a burkha-babe and think that there are some people who presume that someone like that is moral, ethical and even religious because of how they look, I know they needn't take things for granted. And so, it's not a matter of "us" vs. "them" but me vs. the badder-than-I.

And also, think about the kids not about Ultra-Orthodox Jewry.

She's been charged with tying up her kids and beat...

2008-04-01T12:26:00.000+03:00

She's been charged with tying up her kids and beating them.

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/970647.html

The analyzer: don't think anyone is saying that th...

2008-03-31T23:07:00.000+03:00

The analyzer:

don't think anyone is saying that this lady is normal. She's a kooky wacko.

However, that is not the question that is currently being dealt with. The question is if she physically abused them (eg broke her daughters nose with a rolling pin) and aided incestuous relations.

There are many people here who are taking for granted that the ISraeli Police tells the truth - they DO NOT! They cannot be trusted, and as such, this lady is INNOCENT until proven otherwise.

I'm hearing that she will be released in the next few days - her son who supposedly had sex with his 8 year old sister has already been released - from both jail and from house arrest

I'd like to bring up a few things that no one so f...

2008-03-31T21:20:00.000+03:00

I'd like to bring up a few things that no one so far has even mentioned.

How did this woman give birth under so many layers? How did you make EYE-CONTACT with the newborns, which is crucial to the emotional development of babies?
How did she (breast) feed them? Also a key ingredient in bonding with your offspring.
How can you discipline children and guide them on the proper path if you never look INTO THEIR EYES?
How can a mother(?) raise children without flesh contact with her children, soothing them, caressing them.
The eyes are the window to the soul. Torah and Kaballah teach this. The entire situation is deficient and questionable. There are so many details that are being ignored here, and I think they are all representative of a deficient mind.
Even (most) Muslim women expose their eyes and inside the home uncover their faces and perhaps do not wear the burqa inside either. So the children are able to form a NORMAL growing up.
There are too many details being ignored.
I think that is why the Social Services were called in to assess and make a determination to the extent of the damage. To say there was no DEPRIVATION is ignoring NORMALCY.
AND because the frum woman does not cover herself in this fashion when she leaves the home, these women who followed her are in effect CUTTING THEMSELVES OFF from the klal, and this is frowned upon.
Whether and to what extent the truth is exposed, no one can deny that the exposure will act as a deterrent to frumka wannabees.

The Analyzer

If you read the article in Hebrew, you will see th...

2008-03-30T23:40:00.000+03:00

If you read the article in Hebrew, you will see that police claimed that they had recordings of the Rabbi (presumably making harassing phone calls to the woman).

Obviously, there were no phone calls.

Until you have met the Israeli police, any theories of them upholding truth are simply wrong.

Once you have met the Israeli police, you no longer have such theories :-)

In an earlier post YOU slandered Vicki Polin, who ...

2008-03-30T23:31:00.000+03:00

In an earlier post YOU slandered Vicki Polin, who is the first to admit she's a little crazy but shockingly enough has yet to have been wrong when she has pointed the finger at an abusive Rabbi.

Firstly, get your people right. I am anonymous - the second guy who started talking about Lashon Hora is not me. I was not talking on a religious level - I was referring to a level of decency that is needed in any liberal and democratic society - the theory that one is innocent until proven guilty. Of course, the question of 'proof' is yours to decide - should you simply believe Israeli press reports - that is your prerogative, although I would question your intelligence level.

Secondly, Vicki Polin has falsely accused people. Offhand, the story of the Rabbi of Ariel comes to mind - he was set up - arrested for rape. See here:
http://www.theawarenesscenter.org/Nager_Shalom.html

Of course, when the Rabbi was let go, and the case was dropped due to the woman who claimed the rape having a history of claiming rape against many other people, no one bothered reporting it. I managed to find it on one site:
http://www.nfc.co.il/Archive/003-D-7863-00.html?tag=23-28-48

Vicki Polin still chooses to defame this Rabbi (who has since died, if I recall correctly), due to claims made by one person, and an anti-religious media and police force. The police claimed that they had proof and additional rape victims - which never materialized, but for some reason that was not reported.

So, Mr. Eyes Open, do you have enough guts to apologize to me for your incorrect comments in which you accused me of slandering Vicki Polin?

Anonymous who ironically keeps banging on about Lo...

2008-03-30T22:06:00.000+03:00

Anonymous who ironically keeps banging on about Loshon Hora:

In an earlier post YOU slandered Vicki Polin, who is the first to admit she's a little crazy but shockingly enough has yet to have been wrong when she has pointed the finger at an abusive Rabbi. What would you prefer, that the violence and abuse continues unfettered? Do you have children? Do you care?

Don't lecture on innocent until proven guilty: Via this post, Jameel has raised an important issue- whatever the outcome of the case involving this woman, people like you need to accept that abuse goes on in the Charedi community just as much as in any other community, and not declare all accusations to be witch-hunting.

http://ccrw.1202.org.il/English

lurkerall of these constructive debates could have...

2008-03-30T18:37:00.000+03:00

lurker

all of these constructive debates could have occurred minus the loshon hora.

there is no halachic problem with constructive debate. there is an enormous halachic problem with loshon hora.

Anonymous @ 12:18 PM: what was the constructive p...

2008-03-30T17:33:00.000+03:00

Anonymous @ 12:18 PM: what was the constructive purpose of posting all this stuff?

I believe that there are some very important things one can, and should, learn from this case. For some examples, see this post by Rafi G.

everyone posting here should get a copy of the cho...

2008-03-30T12:18:00.000+03:00

everyone posting here should get a copy of the chofetz chaim's 'lesson a day' on loshon hara.

and read it.

and then think very carefully about how Hashem would want us to react in this situation.

loshon hora ONLY pertains to things that are true. if the information is false, then it's slander - which is an even more serious offense.

what was the constructive purpose of posting all this stuff?

horrible

2008-03-30T03:59:00.000+03:00

horrible

Sorry, anonocharedi-It's extremely rare that paren...

2008-03-29T22:10:00.000+03:00

Sorry, anonocharedi-

It's extremely rare that parents who are arrested for severe child abuse get completely exonerated and the stories are completely made up. This isn't tax evasion or some kind of "victimless crime". If it's bad enough that the police are involved, the benefit of the doubt rests with the children, not the mom, crazy or not. You might not like it, but that's the way it is.

Should we also be reserving judgment on the American charedi couple from Shaarei Chesed as well, with two kids in the hospital? Are they also innocent until proven guilty? Sorry, pal, not on your life. Not when two kids are in the hospital and the parents are pointing fingers at each other and all the mother can do on TV is stick her head in her tehillim. Pathetic.

Yisroel - you're smiling too much at this. Too mu...

2008-03-28T16:49:00.000+03:00

Yisroel - you're smiling too much at this. Too much of us versus them.

12:21 Son of alleged Beit Shemesh child abusers ad...

2008-03-28T13:01:00.000+03:00

12:21 Son of alleged Beit Shemesh child abusers admits to having sex with sister (Haaretz)

I hope relatives of her followers are getting thei...

2008-03-28T07:32:00.000+03:00

I hope relatives of her followers are getting their relatives psychological help.

ironi burgani: "2. We all have our lunatic fringes...

2008-03-28T04:14:00.000+03:00

ironi burgani: "2. We all have our lunatic fringes, and you would be rightly offended if someone suggested that it is only a matter of time before your lunatic fringe goes mainstream."

Of course I would. I value my lunatic fringe keepin' it real and not bein' sellouts yo.

akive: "I would only add, the Israeli news is well known for serious exaturation and hanging people with completely circumstantial evidence."

So they're all American ex-pats is what you're saying...

balabusta in blue jeans: "All it takes is charismatic leaders, an obsession with sexual sin, a closed family system which rejects outside influence, and a firm belief that God likes you and not THEM."

Statement most approaching 100% accuracy ever.

Anyhow given that, it's a good thing latent psychic powers aren't more common because that household seems eerily reminiscent of Carrie.

With regard to burqas... I would not mind them AT ALL... IF AND ONLY IF it was a fashion statement as well as chastity/purity statement AND totally up to the women. But that's the fearful thing. We know that if the more conservative women get this going as a matter of standard practice, it becomes tradition, and once that happens, we'll get to the point where no one will care it's solely self-invented and not from Torah or even the rabbinical op-ed section.

And you just know the colorful blue would have to go and they'd be all black and that's boring; though it does occur that it might become a fad here among goth punk kids at the mall.

Look what the spread of once fringe Islamic conservatism has done to the eastern fashions. What ever happened to the decoration, the colors, the fine cloths... It's anti-artistic and soul-crushing. In the name of what? Blaming men who can't keep their pants up?

I swear this world is so seriously messed up...

You people have really missed the point.You're on ...

2008-03-28T00:17:00.000+02:00

You people have really missed the point.

You're on a witch hunt.

You smell the blood.

All that I'm asking is that you refrain from passing judgment until this is cleared up, as there are conflicting statements as to what happened, and it is NOT clear that any children were abused to the extent that the news reports claim that they were.

Call it circling the wagons.

Call it issuing denials.

I prefer to refer to it as "Innocent until proven Guilty". Can someone please explain to me why that does not pertain in this case?

...I can't help but grin.

2008-03-27T22:07:00.000+02:00

...I can't help but grin.

Thank you Rahel--well said. The real victims here...

2008-03-27T22:06:00.000+02:00

Thank you Rahel--well said. The real victims here are the children--not the hareidim and not the parents. And yes, it is indicative of a real canker that is festering in the community when the concerns for the children's well being are not front and center.

Tonight's news, if I understood it correctly, seem...

2008-03-27T22:04:00.000+02:00

Tonight's news, if I understood it correctly, seem to indicate that the "abuse" was in permitting one or more of the children to engage in sexual activity with other siblings and I think I heard that the 28 year old son arrested was perhaps mentally deficient. The father, arrested today upon arrival back in Israel, is claimed to have been aware of the sexual crimes since he moved into that son's bedroom to be more supervisory, to no avail though. It seems to be a bit more complicated. I will admit, though, that everytime they show the clip of the Rebbitzen walking down the hall and tripping over her burkha, I can't help be grin.

I find it distressing that people can read an arti...

2008-03-27T20:56:00.000+02:00

I find it distressing that people can read an article like this and, instead of thinking of the children who have suffered so much, immediately accuse the report of Haredi-bashing. Talk about focusing one's attention in the wrong place!

The only thing that this behavior of circling the wagons and issuing denials, in whatever form, will accomplish is forcing other children in similar situations to suffer more, and for longer periods of time.

Whatever happened to the Jewish ideal of u-viarta et ha-ra mi-kirbekha (you shall cleanse the evil from among you)? We need to expose this evil wherever we find it, call it by name and bring the perpetrators to justice.

Another thing: in my opinion, those who engage in these knee-jerk denials are committing a form of avodah zarah: sacrificing real, flesh-and-blood human beings to an idea -- entirely false, as it happens -- that a given community is perfect and that nothing bad ever happens there. Abuse occurs in every community, from the most secular to the most observant. No place is immune.

"Is the lunatic fringe of Chareidi, Ultra-Orthodox...

2008-03-27T20:23:00.000+02:00

"Is the lunatic fringe of Chareidi, Ultra-Orthodox society really approaching that of Islamic Fundamentalism? What's next? Honor Killings of women who aren't dressed modestly enough? Is it only a matter of time before this lunatic fringe goes mainstream? Ramat Saudi Arabia Bet?"

For the most part, probably not, if that's any comfort. But Islamic fundamentalism isn't some special thing that Islam cooked up, and the rest of us are immune to. Look at breakaway rogue Mormon groups in the U.S. Crazy as heck.

All it takes is charismatic leaders, an obsession with sexual sin, a closed family system which rejects outside influence, and a firm belief that God likes you and not THEM.

Yeah. People could go there. The big advantage that the haredi community has in avoiding going is that potential nutjobs are closely surrounded by sane haredim--not living up in the hills for the most part--and that haredi communities are largely located in stable democracies with social services and stern child abuse laws. That helps.

Im such a psuhover to do the right thing :)(see bo...

2008-03-27T19:18:00.000+02:00

Im such a psuhover to do the right thing :)

(see bottom of the post)

Unfotuantely, Israel's media jumps on top of anyon...

2008-03-27T19:03:00.000+02:00

Unfotuantely, Israel's media jumps on top of anyone arrested (left, right, center, media personality, religious, chareidi or politician) -- the concept of "innocent till proven guilty" does not exist.

That said, having followed the burka cult since it's inception, I blog it. The main point of my post was the connection between the burka lady and her son in law, the head kanno'i that terrorizes ramat beit shemesh.

As such, I would suggest that you go a step above everyone else, and put a disclaimer at the top of the post as follows:

Note: As of 3/27/2008, the acts described below are only accusations - no indictment has been filed, nor has anyone been found guilty. Let's keep that in mind before reaching conclusions.

From the quality of your posts in the past, I do think that you will put up some type of disclaimer, even if it is not exactly what I wrote.

{Disclaimer: I still feel that the burka wearers are nuts and that the kannoim need to be stoned in return - but - they should not be falsely accused of horrifying acts if the accusations are indeed untrue.}

If they were simply doing their job, they would sh...

2008-03-27T18:56:00.000+02:00

If they were simply doing their job, they would shut the hell up until after the investigation is complete!

Unfotuantely, Israel's media jumps on top of anyone arrested (left, right, center, media personality, religious, chareidi or politician) -- the concept of "innocent till proven guilty" does not exist.

That said, having followed the burka cult since it's inception, I blog it. The main point of my post was the connection between the burka lady and her son in law, the head kanno'i that terrorizes ramat beit shemesh.