tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post114893393238350217..comments2024-03-27T07:01:13.725+02:00Comments on The Muqata: Guest Post: Can a Baal Teshuva with doubts remain Frum?Jameel @ The Muqatahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comBlogger71125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1168302264399994682007-01-09T02:24:00.000+02:002007-01-09T02:24:00.000+02:00http://utairway.com/en/reg-Cruises-500-34485.html ...http://utairway.com/en/reg-Cruises-500-34485.html - Cruises <BR/>[url=http://utairway.com/en/reg-Cruises-500-34485.html] Cruises[/url]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1168299020747356802007-01-09T01:30:00.000+02:002007-01-09T01:30:00.000+02:00http://utairway.com/en/reg-Air_Adventures-295-12_3...http://utairway.com/en/reg-Air_Adventures-295-12_3.html - Air Adventures <BR/>[url=http://utairway.com/en/reg-Air_Adventures-295-12_3.html] Air Adventures[/url]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1167913893168110062007-01-04T14:31:00.000+02:002007-01-04T14:31:00.000+02:00http://utairway.com/en/reg-Magazines_and_E-61-1026...http://utairway.com/en/reg-Magazines_and_E-61-1026.html - Magazines and E <BR/>[url=http://utairway.com/en/reg-Magazines_and_E-61-1026.html] Magazines and E[/url]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1167908182143154072007-01-04T12:56:00.000+02:002007-01-04T12:56:00.000+02:00http://utairway.com/en/reg-Travel_and_Hospitality_...http://utairway.com/en/reg-Travel_and_Hospitality_Jobs-209-11573.html - Travel and Hospitality Jobs <BR/>[url=http://utairway.com/en/reg-Travel_and_Hospitality_Jobs-209-11573.html] Travel and Hospitality Jobs[/url]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1167443745653120502006-12-30T03:55:00.000+02:002006-12-30T03:55:00.000+02:00http://rexanit.com/news/categ-Vaseretic_5_12_5_Hyd...http://rexanit.com/news/categ-Vaseretic_5_12_5_Hydrochlorothiazide_and_enalapril-6936.html - Vaseretic 5-12.5 Hydrochlorothiazide and enalapril <BR/>[url=http://rexanit.com/news/categ-Vaseretic_5_12_5_Hydrochlorothiazide_and_enalapril-6936.html] Vaseretic 5-12.5 Hydrochlorothiazide and enalapril [/url]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1167427423948034142006-12-29T23:23:00.000+02:002006-12-29T23:23:00.000+02:00http://rexanit.com/news/categ-Triotann_Chlorphenir...http://rexanit.com/news/categ-Triotann_Chlorpheniramine__pyrilamine__and_phenylephrine-6751.html - Triotann Chlorpheniramine, pyrilamine, and phenylephrine <BR/>[url=http://rexanit.com/news/categ-Triotann_Chlorpheniramine__pyrilamine__and_phenylephrine-6751.html] Triotann Chlorpheniramine, pyrilamine, and phenylephrine [/url]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1167387603692860972006-12-29T12:20:00.000+02:002006-12-29T12:20:00.000+02:00http://rexanit.com/news/categ-Wellbutrin_SR_Buprop...http://rexanit.com/news/categ-Wellbutrin_SR_Bupropion__oral_-7043.html - Wellbutrin SR Bupropion (oral) <BR/>[url=http://rexanit.com/news/categ-Wellbutrin_SR_Bupropion__oral_-7043.html] Wellbutrin SR Bupropion (oral) [/url]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1167385491113906822006-12-29T11:44:00.000+02:002006-12-29T11:44:00.000+02:00http://rexanit.com/news/categ-Ventavis_Iloprost-69...http://rexanit.com/news/categ-Ventavis_Iloprost-6955.html - Ventavis Iloprost <BR/>[url=http://rexanit.com/news/categ-Ventavis_Iloprost-6955.html] Ventavis Iloprost [/url]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1166612852134207592006-12-20T13:07:00.000+02:002006-12-20T13:07:00.000+02:00http://teonix.net/en/reg-Publishing_and_Printing-5...http://teonix.net/en/reg-Publishing_and_Printing-535-30230.html - Publishing and Printing <BR/>[url=http://teonix.net/en/reg-Publishing_and_Printing-535-30230.html] Publishing and Printing [/url]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1166607390007551042006-12-20T11:36:00.000+02:002006-12-20T11:36:00.000+02:00http://teonix.net/en/reg-Society-205-390.html - So...http://teonix.net/en/reg-Society-205-390.html - Society <BR/>[url=http://teonix.net/en/reg-Society-205-390.html] Society [/url]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1166526394468001902006-12-19T13:06:00.000+02:002006-12-19T13:06:00.000+02:00http://isater.com/news/categ-health_insurance_inte...http://isater.com/news/categ-health_insurance_international_uae-3578.html - health insurance international uae <BR/>[url=http://isater.com/news/categ-health_insurance_international_uae-3578.html] health insurance international uae [/url]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1166483615461764672006-12-19T01:13:00.000+02:002006-12-19T01:13:00.000+02:00Hello! I have just found your website great [url...Hello! <BR/> <BR/>I have just found your website great <BR/> <BR/>[url=http://pornus.hearsef.info/adult-amatuer-sex-videos.html]adult amatuer sex videos[/url] <BR/> <BR/>[url=http://pornus.hearsef.info/all-time-sex-comics.html]all time sex comics[/url] <BR/> <BR/>[url=http://pornus.hearsef.info/alyssa-milano-nude-videos.html]alyssa milano nude videos[/url] <BR/> <BR/>[url=http://pornus.hearsef.info/anorexic-nude-body-pics.html]anorexic nude body pics[/url] <BR/> <BR/>[url=http://pornus.hearsef.info/asian-anal-sex-gallery.html]asian anal sex gallery[/url] <BR/>give thanks <BR/>Robert LedermannAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1153574167747744862006-07-22T16:16:00.000+03:002006-07-22T16:16:00.000+03:00Interesting site. Useful information. Bookmarked.&...Interesting site. Useful information. Bookmarked.<BR/><A HREF="http://loans.ujtar17.be/loans_no_checking_account.html" REL="nofollow">»</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1153176183482218252006-07-18T01:43:00.000+03:002006-07-18T01:43:00.000+03:00Hi there. Doubt and struggling with same, and ask...Hi there. Doubt and struggling with same, and asking the questions you are, are part of the human condition. It's the people who don't have any doubts that really scare me. That being said, I would also look into ways of dealing/alleviating the depression. It's something I've struggled with too, and it can cloud everything. Hang in there!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1149576559266247332006-06-06T09:49:00.000+03:002006-06-06T09:49:00.000+03:00Get rid of Judaism, and I believe the problem is s...<I>Get rid of Judaism, and I believe the problem is solved.</I><BR/><BR/>Holy Hyrax- A week on, I've just re-read the entire thread. And it seems that you don't appear to be looking for answers at all: You are quick to dismiss anyone's valid points. I suspect that you have already written your own narrative for the future and you are hiding behind it.<BR/><BR/>The more I read your responses, the more your predicament and state of mind is becoming clear to me. I do not believe you when you say that your attitude to Judaism is the only problem in your life, whatever "evidence" you have from talking to random psychologists. Well here's some advice from another random therapist: You need help, and fast, to sort out your very serious issues. If not for you, then for the sake of your family. I would avoid a "Rabbi who specialises in Kiruv"-as that is clearly the last thing you need. Instead, get a decent therapist who can help you work things out, and stop hiding behind this problem and confront your true fears. Drugs don't have to enter the equation, but nothing is going to happen for you unless you start being honest with yourself. <BR/><BR/>All the best.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1149493772619951022006-06-05T10:49:00.000+03:002006-06-05T10:49:00.000+03:00I have a different way of looking at it, which I d...I have a different way of looking at it, which I don't believe has been addressed. Let's leave your wife out of it for a minute and say you were solely in charge of their upbringing. Is it important for you that they live a Jewish life and raise their own children as Jews? Because outside of Israel (and even within) the prevailing secular or Christian culture is so strong that parents who don't actively offer an alternative to the general culture do not have a chance. I have an online friend who happens to be married to a Jew. Her Jewish identity consists of feeling uncomfortable walking into a church and not celebrating Christmas. She can take or leave going to a seder. Her husband is even more assimilated. That's not much to pass on to your children. A lot of her identity she received through osmosis from the Jewish clan she grew up with, but her children are one generation removed from Yiddishkeit. Fortunately she decided to send her children to a Jewish school for now but I don't know if that will be enough. Do you want your chldren to know Jewish history, holidays, Jewish ethical teachings, texts and so on? Or would you be happy if they grew up to be moral and self-sufficient individuals, but not very Jewish? If it's important to you that they continue the Jewish chain, I think you might need to choose to continue to observe Jewish traditions in the home as much as possible, despite your doubts. And not leave it all to your wife. Early childhood experiences are very powerful. If not, well, I guess you will have some tough choices. Good luck.mother in israelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13715046177293916034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1149395096369419162006-06-04T07:24:00.000+03:002006-06-04T07:24:00.000+03:00HH, would you send me your email address?HH, would you send me your email address?Eliyahuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10427438219763803238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1149123425604823132006-06-01T03:57:00.000+03:002006-06-01T03:57:00.000+03:00Nice to know others are suffering from the valley ...Nice to know others are suffering from the valley infreno except for me!!<BR/><BR/>I think Michal does have a good point that you are quick to dismiss everyone's point because in a way that gives you a shield to stand behind: "oh I've tried that and it doesn't work."<BR/><BR/>Maybe you should try a session of therapy, it can't hurt. But honestly I think more than advice, you need time off from worrying all the time, and as much as you like to blog, eezie is right that blogs will not lead you to any conclusions but just get you thinking more, which does not sound like something you need to be doing right now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1149110784997153542006-06-01T00:26:00.000+03:002006-06-01T00:26:00.000+03:00HH- you wrote:It is important because there is a p...HH- you wrote:<BR/><BR/><<<BR/>It is important because there is a point in my life at least when you want to know whether the history is correct. If Chazal and our Mesorah says millions left and it turns out only a few thousand, it puts a dent on some of the credibility of the mesorah. Also, it puts a dent on the pshat of the Torah where it says millions left. This is the problem. This is what I am talking about when I say it seems Judaism is up against the wall trying to defend something that rational logic has won over. My question is not how it impacts our book, but if this book is legit in its claim.<BR/>>><BR/><BR/>(I can't get the darned ialics to work in this post)<BR/><BR/>The mesora of our history is different than the mesora of our halacha. Halacha developed over centuries of rabbinic discussion. The history either happened the way it is recorded or didn't. Why should the one impact the other?<BR/><BR/>I understand wanting to know what really happened in our past. It gives a very firm sense of grounding. But look at events written in the Torah itself and you will see different perspectives. Take the spies for example. The version in Devarim is totally at odds with the one in Bamidbar. Is it two authors? Is it one author casting the events from different points of view? Is one more right than the other?<BR/><BR/>To look at it more globally is there any absolute truth? Or is it all a matter of the perspective of the observer?<BR/><BR/>So the events themselves happened how they did. We can never, ever know what really went on. Even if we assumed that the words of the Torah are the exact words of God without even the slightest change. Many of the commentaries on the Torah take that as a given and yet still argue as to what actually happened.<BR/><BR/>So to hinge your entire religious observance on wanting to know what really occured at any point in history will always meet with failure.<BR/><BR/>And none of it really has anything to do with the practice of the religion. It is a rare exception where a halacha is based on how an event transpired. Halacha has to be logic based. A prophet can not decree halacha, because it is not butressed by the logical underpinnings of the halachic system.<BR/><BR/>I agree with you that many communities expend excessive energy fighting minutiae. Is that the community in which you want to live? There are many well-balanced Orthodox communities that do not have the hang-ups of the groups you find distasteful. Perhaps you need to find a group whose perspective is more along the lines with what you consider important. There are Orthodox communities that fit that mold.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1149109817837825262006-06-01T00:10:00.000+03:002006-06-01T00:10:00.000+03:00Ya, the whether is great, except for living in the...<I>Ya, the whether is great, except for living in the inferno of The Valley.</I><BR/><BR/>I love the Valley. Let me guess, we probably pass each other at Cambridge Farms.<BR/><BR/>I am the guy with the beard and black hat. Ok, no beard now, but there will be again and my hat isn't black.<BR/><BR/>For that matter, I am probably in shorts and a t-shirt.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, sounds like you are on your way to making a decision and that in itself has got to be a relief.Jack Steinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16625864271071630940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1149108957572038532006-05-31T23:55:00.000+03:002006-05-31T23:55:00.000+03:00edit: That should be "Not only do the blogs lack m...edit: That should be "Not only do the blogs lack many serious experts on Torah, but a blog by nature generally debates and debates without coming to a conclusion."Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1149107126320134062006-05-31T23:25:00.000+03:002006-05-31T23:25:00.000+03:00While I disagree with much of what Michal said, fo...While I disagree with much of what Michal said, for various reasons, including having met HH... she brought up a couple of interesting points. [See, now I get involved...!]<BR/><BR/><I>stop looking for the holes in the arguments and start looking for the pieces you can use</I><BR/><BR/>I think that may be the most important one. It's impossible to find the answers to everything. If we could, there wouldn't be debates on whether or not God exists, whether Judaism is the right religion, etc. There *are* holes in the Mesorah, and some are easily identifiable. Much like you, I had quick responses in my head to many of the points people were making above. And I recognize the difference in the way I (or Chardal, or Jameel, or GH...) can approach this as FFBs versus how you can as a BT. But I still think you're approaching this from the wrong direction.<BR/><BR/>I also think the best advice anyone gave here was remarkably simplistic: Take a step back for a bit.<BR/><BR/>Here's something I wrote to someone else yesterday: [HH] got real, heartfelt responses by people who aren’t used to spewing rhetoric. It’s much more valuable that way. I think the best comment may have been the person who advised just forgetting about it all for a while – sometimes, getting away from it all lets you see it more clearly.<BR/><BR/>Good analogy: Play a game of chess. It’s much easier to see the board from the side than it is from behind your pieces, or especially if you’re one of the pieces on the board. Sometimes, looking at everything from the outside makes it that much more clear.<BR/><BR/>In your case, I think taking a couple months off thinking about this stuff is a good idea. I also don't think the blogs are where you're going to find your answers: Not only are the . Afterwards, come back with a different approach - looking for that which *does* make sense, not by eliminating what does not but by evaluating what's there. Recognize that not all the answers are out there - no matter which way you approach it from. If skepticism were a religion, people would have trouble believing in it, simply because it's got so many holes.<BR/><BR/>I don't think religion is measured by how many or few holes it has. It's measured by the content of what it <I>does</I> have, instead.<BR/><BR/>[See, you were only partially right in your assumption of what I'd say. :) ]Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1149101422657903672006-05-31T21:50:00.000+03:002006-05-31T21:50:00.000+03:00From reading your responses to all of the commente...From reading your responses to all of the commenters, you are clearly very smart - you have an answer for all of them. And if you go back and reread your responses, you'll see a common thread: "Yes, I thought of that already." <BR/><BR/>So, you are turning to the blog community for advice, and none of us is as smart as you are. Or you are asking for our help, and we are letting you down because we are only taking you down the same tired paths you've already explored, because you're better travelled. Or maybe you are only looking for straw dogs to beat down, and we're serving that role nicely - you ignore the bits that might help you in favor of addressing the bits that you can say "been there, done that" about and move on. You say again and again that FFB's have it easier than BT's because they are "indoctrinated," so even if they have doubts, they can just stick to praxis. That's insulting, but if there's truth to it, it also means that there's comfort in the ritual for them/us. You reject that too. Every answer is not good enough. It's like every commenter here is being chewed up and spit out by your wisdom and experience. <BR/><BR/>Your initial post sounded like someone who is desperately hoping for a rope to cling to. Your response to the commenters sounds like someone who wants to beat down anyone who tries to throw it to him, because it's not good enough. <BR/><BR/>People are suggesting therapy because you sound depressed. I think you sound depressed too. Not because you are gloomy or sobbing or other signs. But because you don't seem to want the help you are asking for - you seem to be revelling in being right about not being helpable. That is a classic sign of being trapped in a hole. <BR/><BR/>That's what depression is.<BR/><BR/>And just like all the hashkafic and torah arguents before you, you dismiss it completely. You don't need therapy, because your problem is: your problem. If only your problem would go away, you would be fine. But that's what therapy is all about. Talking about what's troubling you. And maybe that's why subconsciously it's so important to you to refuse. If you don't go, you can't say: this is why it won't work (that's also a very typical sign of depression, BTW - there's a comfort in staying "right," because there's a fear of the last bit of hope being shattered). You are not smarter than therapists. You can't self-diagnose your problem. You can't dismiss it out of hand when you haven't tried it - that's what alcoholics who don't want to help themselves do too. They're smarter than AA. Because they don't have a real problem. <BR/><BR/>This is not "just Judaism." This is a central issue in your life. It affects your life and it affects your kid's lives and it could affect your marriage too. You might function just fine outside of this problem. But there are functioning alcoholics too. And they say they're fine too. <BR/><BR/>Based on your responses to the commenters, now you may be ready to say that that's not a good analogy, because knowing the dates when the Torah was written is an intellectual matter that people throughout the ages have debated, not just you. And alcoholism is a disease. So now you can dismiss my whole comment. But you're still in denial that you have a real problem, and you're still arguing with everyone trying to help you by saying you know better, and you're still saying you don't know how to get help, when you need help. And it is affecting your mental state of mind.<BR/><BR/>No one can help you except you. <BR/><BR/>You can keep saying no to everyone who is trying to help you, and you will ALWAYS find holes in their arguments. The torah is full of holes. That's why people have been debating torah, and gemara, and halacha, and chumras, for centuries. If you really want help, stop looking for the holes in the arguments and start looking for the pieces you can use. A safety net is nothing but holes strung together.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1149098772351510262006-05-31T21:06:00.000+03:002006-05-31T21:06:00.000+03:00HH - I'm still staying out of the real discussion,...<I>HH - I'm still staying out of the real discussion, and you probably can guess why. I may e-mail you separately, I may post later.</I><BR/><BR/>Ezzie<BR/><BR/>I can guess why and I don't want to hear it. Not from you man. Not from you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-1149097559757151872006-05-31T20:45:00.000+03:002006-05-31T20:45:00.000+03:00-MortI appreciate the comment but I don’t know why...-Mort<BR/><BR/>I appreciate the comment but I don’t know why everyone thinks I need therapy. I was never depressed before I became religious. All the doubts and trying to find answers to things I might not find has led me to this depression. If I go to a therapist, he will most likely tell me what I already know in order to make me happy. Dump Judaism.<BR/><BR/><BR/>-Stepima<BR/><BR/>Agreed. <BR/><BR/>It’s a good thing you were clarifying before that foot went down deeper.<BR/><BR/>-Jacks shack<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the comment. I have already taken a long break before. It turned out that while I was forcing myself to take a break, I thought about it harder.<BR/><BR/>Ya, the whether is great, except for living in the inferno of The Valley.<BR/><BR/>-Rockofgalilee<BR/><BR/><I>The main questions that religion is supposed to answer is:<BR/>a) why did God create the world?<BR/>b) what are we supposed to do here?</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, that’s the other slippery slope. If you believe in God creating the world, then it must have a purpose, he must have shared that purpose with his creations, and so forth.<BR/><BR/>That’s the nice slippery slope, but the other is much steeper and more dangerous. Often enough, you ride them both at the same time.<BR/><BR/><I>Our tradition, passed down unbroken throughout the generations, is that in the Sinai experience God told us exactly what to do in the Torah.</I><BR/><BR/>Its not unbroken, but there is no way I can get into this right here. You are free to email me and we can discuss your entire Accountant metaphor and Slifkin.<BR/><BR/>-njd<BR/><BR/><I>Does it really matter to God if I do this act or not?). These are two very different issues.</I><BR/><BR/>I don’t think I ever asked this, and if I did mention it, you are probably misunderstanding what I meant.<BR/><BR/><I>But what I think is the more practical matter is how that impacts on our observances. After all, whether 1.2 million or 2.4 million or only a few thousand people left Egypt really isn't that important. I think your question is, and please correct me if I'm wrong, how does the book we have impact on what we do? And how do we know that that is really what God wants of us anyway</I><BR/><BR/>It is important because there is a point in my life at least when you want to know whether the history is correct. If Chazal and our Mesorah says millions left and it turns out only a few thousand, it puts a dent on some of the credibility of the mesorah. Also, it puts a dent on the pshat of the Torah where it says millions left. This is the problem. This is what I am talking about when I say it seems Judaism is up against the wall trying to defend something that rational logic has won over. My question is not how it impacts our book, but if this book is legit in its claim. <BR/><BR/><I>On that last point there is a remarkable story in the Talmud, the oven of achnai.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, I have heard it many times. Its actually very amazing. It just goes to show me the power that we have. That it is our system now and we shall interpret it as we understand it. It also lends to the idea that mistakes can creep in, which is not a bad thing. We are humans. God would know to whom he gave It to and knows mistakes come in, but its all part of the system.<BR/><BR/><I>Jewish law is only as strong as our acceptance of it.</I><BR/><BR/>True, but I am sick of the majority of the communities concerned with the most superficial aspects of Judaism. Tzniut, head coverings, TV etc. These things are important to bring up, but they should be put in perspective, but its put too high up on a pedastal. And the people that know how superficial this is are generally silent lest they anger the gods of their community.<BR/><BR/><I>The one assumption I am taking is that somewhere, at some time, God did tell someone what He wanted. And that after that He let us run with it. </I><BR/><BR/>Like I said, that’s the other slippery slope, the nice one, the one I like. But its against a loosing battle with the other slope.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com