tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post5079513041547669786..comments2024-03-27T07:01:13.725+02:00Comments on The Muqata: From the Modi'in HANGLO email listJameel @ The Muqatahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-67581714758123505312008-12-27T22:54:00.000+02:002008-12-27T22:54:00.000+02:00Christmas carols in Modiin during Channukah!Does A...Christmas carols in Modiin during Channukah!<BR/><BR/>Does Alannis Morissette live in Modiin?<BR/><BR/>Yellow BoyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-2952955076205252112008-12-25T19:11:00.000+02:002008-12-25T19:11:00.000+02:00A rabbi came to our shul a few years back and talk...A rabbi came to our shul a few years back and talked about this problem. There was a secular high school (forgot where in Israel) that chose CHRISTMAS as the theme of their Chanukah program. Also, he mentioned areas where the sale of "basar lavan" has been permitted in Jewish areas.cool yiddishe mamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02585525985186658578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-50533755880941680202008-12-25T04:21:00.000+02:002008-12-25T04:21:00.000+02:00Maybe they could make the experience truly multi-c...Maybe they could make the experience truly multi-cultural and do it in Al-Aqsa... or the <I>other</I> Muqata...The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-82630006431718206752008-12-25T01:15:00.000+02:002008-12-25T01:15:00.000+02:00Lurker,Of course it's ridiculous, and so is Keleme...Lurker,<BR/><BR/>Of course it's ridiculous, and so is Kelemen's.<BR/><BR/>Here's the point: There is nothing inherently antisemitic about Christmas, particularly the contemporary secular variety. While I acknowledge the terrible deeds done to Jews on that day by Christians, and the motivations their religion played in those persecutions, presently the day is not (and need not be) defined by those actions.<BR/><BR/>As awful as those attacks were, there have also been plenty of Christmases where not a single Jew has been abused. Are we going to claim that those were "unrepresentative" of the "true" meaning of Christmas, which apparently is Jew-punching? If not, then the fact that historically we had psychotic hate-filled Christians using their holiday as an excuse and justification to attack us should not require us to spend the day sitting in sackcloth when present-day Christmas celebrations involve nothing remotely resembling those "bad old days."<BR/><BR/>There are plenty of reasons for Jews to individually or communally decide not to observe Christmas. But "Five hundred years they made us run laps in Rome to celebrate it" doesn't make my cut.Friar Yid (not Shlita)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10311439778319103094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-77223470044105520992008-12-24T23:58:00.000+02:002008-12-24T23:58:00.000+02:00Friar Yid (not Shlita): When in Jewish history ha...Friar Yid (not Shlita): <I>When in Jewish history have we NOT had something bad happen to us? Presumably Kelemen's next article will say we can't celebrate July 4th because it coincides with assorted Jew-burnings, pogroms, Catherine the Great sealing the Pale of Settlement, not to mention the birthdays of Meyer Lansky and Michael Milken, oh the shandehs!</I><BR/><BR/>Gila: <I>I am going to agree with Friar Yid's comments about Christmas. Bad stuff happened all year round.</I><BR/><BR/>That is a total non-sequitur, and an incredibly ridiculous argument. Jews were never persecuted on July 4th <I>as a part of the July 4th celebrations</I>. By contrast, thousands of Jews were tortuted, raped, and murdered on Christmas in Europe, over a period of centuries, <I>as an integral part of the Christmas festivities</I>.<BR/><BR/>Are you really unable to comprehend such a fundamental distinction?Lurkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05516196101946513020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-39985951284745404112008-12-24T23:40:00.000+02:002008-12-24T23:40:00.000+02:00A perfect demonstration of modern-day Hellenizers ...A perfect demonstration of modern-day Hellenizers - and just in time for Hannukah. And in Modiin, no less! It's the perfect history lesson. 2160 years ago these types of people were fighting alongside Seleucid mercenaries against Matitiahu the Hasmonean and his sons in the Judean hills.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-42775983517690103582008-12-24T23:11:00.000+02:002008-12-24T23:11:00.000+02:00Does anyone have the lyrics to Seymour Rockoff's "...Does anyone have the lyrics to Seymour Rockoff's "rock of my security" or Destiny's "colored candles"<BR/><BR/>I feel like some Channuka caroling :)Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-32253603793333108742008-12-24T23:08:00.000+02:002008-12-24T23:08:00.000+02:00Gila, I happen to agree with much of your comment....Gila, I happen to agree with much of your comment. For example, Handel's Messiah is beautiful, and appreciating the beauty of Wagner obviously does not mean that the listener shares Wagner's views.<BR/><BR/>Personally, I was not making generalizations. I was speaking about the possibilities of what was going on. Obviously there are other possibilities, including innocent appreciation of the beauty of the music.<BR/><BR/>However, I believe very strongly that a public display of songs whose content has its basis in avodah zarah is at the very least, inappropriate, even more so when it coincides [roughly] with the date of one of their idolatrous celebrations.<BR/><BR/>Being over zealous, and IMHO living in a state fear, about religous observance to the point of causing serious harm to fellow Jews is problematic. The spiritual illness of inviting avodah zara songs into a public display in a Jewish community [while denying Jews the right to perform misswoth in high schools] is even more repugnant to me.<BR/><BR/>Colin, I believe that you've completely missed the point. The fact that you [think that you] have come out of your Xmas carol singing unscathed is completely irrelevant.Esser Agarothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-77511166832063297382008-12-24T22:46:00.000+02:002008-12-24T22:46:00.000+02:00רבי אלעזר המודעי אומר, המחלל את הקודשים, והמבזה את...רבי אלעזר המודעי אומר, המחלל את הקודשים, והמבזה את המועדות, והמפר בריתו של אברהם אבינו, והמלבין פני חברו ברבים, <B>והמגלה פנים בתורה</B>--אף על פי שיש בידו מעשים טובים, <B>אין לו חלק לעולם הבא.<BR/></B><BR/>Rabbi Elazar of Modi'in would say: One who profanes the kodoshim, degrades the Festivals, humiliates his friend in public, abrogates the covenant of our father Abraham, <B>or who interprets the Torah contrary to its true intent</B>---although he may possess Torah knowledge and good deeds, <B>he has no share in the World to Come</B>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-57183665472058545282008-12-24T21:35:00.000+02:002008-12-24T21:35:00.000+02:00Batya-I don't know where you're from, but I've nev...Batya-<BR/><BR/><I>I don't know where you're from, but I've never heard of such a thing. I have heard of non-religious Jews refusing to participate in public school choirs because of xmas songs, forcing a change in program.</I><BR/><BR/>And I would support them all the way, because the public school should not be putting anyone in a situation where they might be uncomfortable and feel forced into doing something.<BR/><BR/>This is totally different from individual people or families CHOOSING to do something in their homes or a public park that you happen to personally disagree with. A public school doesn't have the right to force its students to eat pork, either, but that doesn't mean that I have a problem if some of those students decide to have a Barbecue.<BR/><BR/>(More tricky is when individual members of the family disagree- last year my brother and I nearly came to blows when he wanted to play a particularly bad cover of "Little Drummer Boy" for the 8th time.)Friar Yid (not Shlita)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10311439778319103094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-57377832987858908352008-12-24T21:30:00.000+02:002008-12-24T21:30:00.000+02:00Anon- and how far should we take this? Should we s...Anon- and how far should we take this? Should we stop wearing pants because "Gentiles do it?" How about putting on deodorant? If it's such a mitzvah to do without on Yom Kippur, how much more so all year round.<BR/><BR/>Wait, I just saw a Gentile eating a sandwich! Damn, one more thing I can't do.<BR/><BR/>...Incidentally, how exactly does one walk in a statute? A statue, I could understand, but a statute?Friar Yid (not Shlita)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10311439778319103094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-12306713895169033892008-12-24T13:28:00.000+02:002008-12-24T13:28:00.000+02:00Leviticus 18:3 After the doings of the land of Egy...Leviticus 18:3<BR/><BR/> After the doings of the land of Egypt, <B>wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do</B>; and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do; <B>neither shall ye walk in their statutes</B>. <BR/><BR/>כְּמַעֲשֵׂה אֶרֶץ-מִצְרַיִם <B>אֲשֶׁר יְשַׁבְתֶּם-בָּהּ, לֹא תַעֲשׂוּ</B>; וּכְמַעֲשֵׂה אֶרֶץ-כְּנַעַן אֲשֶׁר אֲנִי מֵבִיא אֶתְכֶם שָׁמָּה, לֹא תַעֲשׂוּ,<B> וּבְחֻקֹּתֵיהֶם, לֹא תֵלֵכוּ</B>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-8520484181976945172008-12-24T12:58:00.000+02:002008-12-24T12:58:00.000+02:00Hi BatyaI would love to know why you are so fearfu...Hi Batya<BR/><BR/>I would love to know why you are so fearful of a christmas song. <BR/><BR/>Is it because you are insecure with your own jewishness?. <BR/><BR/>Do you honestly believe that a bunch of people singing a christmas song will convert generations of jews into christians?<BR/><BR/>I, together with many of my jewish buddies grew up singing carols in our classroom and amazingly, I did not convert and am probably more Jewish today than most people who attended full time Jewish day schools.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992636396401748686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-85006783277500275592008-12-24T12:24:00.000+02:002008-12-24T12:24:00.000+02:00sad more than sickColin, "From my experience growi...sad more than sick<BR/><BR/>Colin, "From my experience growing up in the states, loads of Jews including <I><B>religious ones</B></I> enjoy a good Christmas carol sing-along."<BR/><BR/>You remind me of the "vegetarians who eat fish."<BR/><BR/>I don't know where you're from, but I've never heard of such a thing. I have heard of non-religious Jews refusing to participate in public school choirs because of xmas songs, forcing a change in program.Batyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11246929075812590204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-25233485209447872752008-12-24T10:25:00.000+02:002008-12-24T10:25:00.000+02:00Regarding the lack of good Hannukah songs--agreed!...Regarding the lack of good Hannukah songs--agreed! As a general (if not absolute) rule...when it comes to literature, art and music, too often "piety" and "tsnius" is considered to be an acceptable substitute for "talent" or "skill". It is not. (Sorry-pet peeve).<BR/><BR/>As for the Christmas carols, a lot of it is really beautiful music. With the exception of Mariah Carey's song, I have not gone out of my way to listen to any of it, but I certainly will not condemn someone who does. <BR/><BR/>I am going to agree with Friar Yid's comments about Christmas. Bad stuff happened all year round. <BR/><BR/>What worries me more than carols, or Hellenization, is the really nasty, judgemental and condemning tone of some of the commenters--especially in light of the recent attacks in RBS. Just because you think music is pretty does not necessarily mean you are: a self-hating Jew, a Jew who hates Torah, or even secular. <BR/><BR/>Honestly, a few songs about peace and brotherhood would not be remiss here.Gilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13246089571573457394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-15941711720206044482008-12-24T08:05:00.000+02:002008-12-24T08:05:00.000+02:00It's already fallen into the black hole in our hou...It's already fallen into the black hole in our house, but last week's Maale haTorah daf kesher (the weekly school newsletter from our local No'am type school) reported how our 5th grade daughter's music class learned about "musika Gospel kushit" and iirc heard Maoz Tzur sung in that genre.HolyCityPrayerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12427375796402133238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-9227393196911077662008-12-24T01:45:00.000+02:002008-12-24T01:45:00.000+02:00Friar, there's a guitar-weilding huckster in our c...Friar, there's a guitar-weilding huckster in our community who's come up with a great (irritating) Hanukkah song that we can't get out of our heads, especially since the Toddler keeps singing it. Not about latkes or dreidels, but about the "Light that shines over all creation." If he made a digital recording, I'd post it, but be assured that there ARE other songs out there.Tzipporahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08807511259582331073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-24874275142419017802008-12-23T23:39:00.000+02:002008-12-23T23:39:00.000+02:00B"HThree possibilities:1. You can take the Jew out...B"H<BR/><BR/>Three possibilities:<BR/><BR/>1. You can take the Jew out of Galuth, but you can't necessarily succeed in taking the Galuth out of the Jew, even if he moves to Israel. Rav Kook ztz"l talked about <I>Galuth P'nimith</I>.<BR/><BR/>2. Missionary activity.<BR/><BR/>3. Have leftists become that desperate in their battle against Torah? Typically, the left has sided with Yishma'el, and the [so-called] right has not so recently been siding with Edom. You've got me...unless Erev Rav is behind this. Their role in this world, according to several, is to unify Yishma'el and Edom. Is this a prelude?Esser Agarothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-32864567553238999982008-12-23T23:37:00.000+02:002008-12-23T23:37:00.000+02:00Who would have thought Jewish anglos would be the ...<B>Who would have thought Jewish anglos would be the biggest promoters of caroling...?</B><BR/><BR/>Bad-taste. It is what unites all of mankind. Urk. And ick. And feh.<BR/><BR/>If they all want is to sing together, I do not see anything wrong with Irish war songs, mediaeval ballads, or the Carmina Burana (but only the Carmina amatoria and Carmina potoria - the rest shmecks of a.z.).<BR/><BR/>Personally, I've always prefered the rousing bloodthirst of the Geuze Liederen to almost any carol.The back of the hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05564245223453467132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-84511052878352472802008-12-23T23:22:00.000+02:002008-12-23T23:22:00.000+02:00Friar Yid: Besided all the Chanukah paraphernalia ...Friar Yid: Besided all the Chanukah paraphernalia we've hung up (different pictures of Chanukiahs and dreidels my kids drew in school), we picked up various Chanukah CDs sold throughout Israel. <BR/><BR/>My kids love the Rock and Roll version of Maoz Tzur. <BR/><BR/>I have to turn down your offer to join you in caroling Xmas songs. If you were singing Jewish or Chanukah songs that would be a whole different story.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-74899372244791945722008-12-23T21:32:00.000+02:002008-12-23T21:32:00.000+02:00You already know my thoughts on the Kelemen articl...You already know my thoughts on the Kelemen article, Jameel. Suffice it to say his arguments has holes bigger than my bubbe's matzoh balls. When in Jewish history have we NOT had something bad happen to us? Presumably Kelemen's next article will say we can't celebrate <A HREF="http://thisdayinjewishhistory.blogspot.com/2008/07/this-day-july-4-in-jewish-history.html" REL="nofollow">July 4th</A> because it coincides with assorted Jew-burnings, pogroms, Catherine the Great sealing the Pale of Settlement, not to mention the birthdays of Meyer Lansky and Michael Milken, oh the shandehs!<BR/><BR/>I agree that I have never heard of Jews caroling. However I would attribute this more to Jews being too smart to go wandering around outside where it's cold belting out songs when they could be inside with their families listening to a good CD.<BR/><BR/><I>Caroling always includes the "favorite" carols:</I><BR/><BR/>I call BS. With the several hundred million Americans celebrating various forms of Christmas it is a big mistake to presume you know all the details of what songs they sing or which ones happen to be their favorites. Besides the taste issue, you're overlooking that with so many Christmas songs in the canon, there are different <B>categories</B> of songs/carols. Some of the more religious/obscure ones are usually reserved for church, while more irreverent ones may be sung in the home, and some are in-between depending on the family and church people belong to.<BR/><BR/>While there are plenty of stupid Christmas songs and even-worse Christmas carols, there are still some that I consider classics- "Chestnuts roasting on an Open Fire" comes to mind, as does "Let it Snow." I don't see the egregious assimilation there, sorry. Some of it also has to do with who's singing it. I would be hard-pressed to feel any religious message coming through from a Frank Sinatra song, so I don't mind his "Silent Night." (That said, for a really bad song, take a listen to "It's Cold Outside.")<BR/><BR/>For the record, I would be happy to play some good Hanukkah music in December if anyone could demonstrate that such a thing exists and that they aren't just the same riffs on Maoz Tzur or insipid inanities about dreidels or latkes.Friar Yid (not Shlita)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10311439778319103094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-29003485984301282872008-12-23T21:00:00.000+02:002008-12-23T21:00:00.000+02:00Gila: Those are not Carols...but songs about Chris...Gila: Those are not Carols...but songs about Christmas. There's a big difference between the songs you mentioned, and traditional "caroling" which is devotional and religious. Caroling always includes the "favorite" carols:<BR/><BR/>Away in a Manger <BR/>Oh Come, All Ye Faithful <BR/>Angels, From the Realms of Glory <BR/>Angels We Have Heard on High <BR/>From Heaven Above to Earth I Come <BR/><BR/>And many others...<BR/><BR/>Christmas was historically a terrible time for the Jewish people, as Christians used it as an excuse to kill Jews. With this in mind, I can't imagine why a Jew with this historical understanding, would want to sing religious Christmas carols?<BR/><BR/>(you should really <A HREF="http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm" REL="nofollow">read this link</A> to get a better perspective on this terrible day in our history)<BR/><BR/>Saturnalia was the forerunner of modern Christmas: <BR/><BR/>(some excerpts from the link I provided) <BR/><I><BR/>Some of the most depraved customs of the Saturnalia carnival were intentionally revived by the Catholic Church in 1466 when Pope Paul II, for the amusement of his Roman citizens, forced Jews to race naked through the streets of the city. An eyewitness account reports, “Before they were to run, the Jews were richly fed, so as to make the race more difficult for them and at the same time more amusing for spectators. They ran… amid Rome’s taunting shrieks and peals of laughter, while the Holy Father stood upon a richly ornamented balcony and laughed heartily.”[5]<BR/><BR/>H. As part of the Saturnalia carnival throughout the 18th and 19th centuries CE, rabbis of the ghetto in Rome were forced to wear clownish outfits and march through the city streets to the jeers of the crowd, pelted by a variety of missiles. When the Jewish community of Rome sent a petition in1836 to Pope Gregory XVI begging him to stop the annual Saturnalia abuse of the Jewish community, he responded, “It is not opportune to make any innovation.”[6] On December 25, 1881, Christian leaders whipped the Polish masses into Antisemitic frenzies that led to riots across the country. In Warsaw 12 Jews were brutally murdered, huge numbers maimed, and many Jewish women were raped. Two million rubles worth of property was destroyed. </I>Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-59428742756678437712008-12-23T20:46:00.000+02:002008-12-23T20:46:00.000+02:00LFD: Difficulty singing carols and so every sings ...LFD: Difficulty singing carols and so every sings together? That sounds suspiciously like a Carlebach minyan :)<BR/><BR/>To Colin: I must admit I was totally bowled over this morning by seeing your comment, and I apologize for not replying sooner!<BR/><BR/>My thoughts on your comment:<BR/><BR/><I>From my experience growing up in the states, loads of Jews including religious ones enjoy a good Christmas carol sing-along.</I><BR/><BR/>Growing up in the States, (granted, it was the NYC area), I never knew anyone Jewish who went caroling. Maybe my community wasn't that pluralistic, but I didnt have any friends (Reform, Conservative of Orthodox) who went caroling. I never did...nor ever thought about it as something I would ever do.<BR/><BR/><I>Surely from time to time you must have caught yourself humming along to jingle bells or silent night?</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, I have (though never Silent night) -- and the tune of "Deck the halls"harmonizes perfectly with "Maoz Tzur". While I know that the tune for Maoz Tzur is based on Lutheran hymn from the 16th century, my understanding is that "Deck the Halls" is much more recent, and based on a Welsh song from the 18th century.<BR/><BR/>However, there's still a difference between humming a tune (or even appreciating a tune from the radio) and actually going out to organize a Carol!<BR/><BR/><I>I don’t believe any harm is done by a communal group of friends getting together to sing some songs about Christmas.</I><BR/><BR/>I guess its a matter of perspective. Christmas songs are usually extremely religious in nature (offering praise to Jesus, etc) and while the tune might be appealing -- the words are simply not palatable to Jews.<BR/><BR/><I> Would it be so strange for a group of Christians to sing Maoz Tsur and spin a dreidel? I think not</I><BR/><BR/>Strange? Absolutely. Almost comical. Case in point -- see <A HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28GUU1YbP_E" REL="nofollow">this video.</A> Yes, I can appreciate the video, but I wouldnt organize people to sing it. I would much rather organize something Jewish related.<BR/><BR/><I>just my thoughts - happy holidays y'all</I><BR/><BR/>Colin - thanks for dropping by, and for offering your opinion! <BR/><BR/>A Very Happy Chanuka to you!Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-32732303025110430222008-12-23T19:37:00.000+02:002008-12-23T19:37:00.000+02:00CBS radio news had a TOP OF THE HOUR story about t...CBS radio news had a TOP OF THE HOUR story about the difficulty of individuals trying to sing carols. Apparently the range is difficult, so most sing in groups, hence caroling together rather than singing off key alone. Why this was a top of the hour story, I don't know...Lakewood Falling Downhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14483392684657880997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-68752106858786164432008-12-23T18:58:00.001+02:002008-12-23T18:58:00.001+02:00"Grandma got run over by a reindeer".... I LOVE th..."Grandma got run over by a reindeer".... I LOVE that song! And Mariah Carey's All I Want for Christmas is You. <BR/><BR/>I do not miss Christmas or the insanity, but the carols were nice....Gilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13246089571573457394noreply@blogger.com