tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post5537203319019336246..comments2024-03-27T07:01:13.725+02:00Comments on The Muqata: The Closing of Volozhin; Jewish Urban Legend?Jameel @ The Muqatahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-52402016001448737682008-11-19T07:46:00.000+02:002008-11-19T07:46:00.000+02:00We should ban the Torah Temima while we're at it.We should ban the Torah Temima while we're at it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-87517258907353531342008-07-08T11:01:00.000+03:002008-07-08T11:01:00.000+03:00pushiter-yid: Would you be willing to email me a s...pushiter-yid: Would you be willing to email me a scanned copy of the letter? I'm curious to see it.<BR/><BR/>Thanks!Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-606467090190066982008-07-07T19:24:00.000+03:002008-07-07T19:24:00.000+03:00I missed a few words. == by keeping "OUT"I missed a few words. == by keeping "OUT"pushiter-yidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18384873969740962799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-44634603729203783742008-07-07T19:23:00.000+03:002008-07-07T19:23:00.000+03:00I have the original letter from the Netziv to his ...I have the original letter from the Netziv to his son Rabbi Chaim Berlin, immediately following the St. Petersburg convention, in which he clearly states that the only hope to maintain torah in the Yeshivah is be keeping any secular learnings or even science etc. - He does agree to have the children learn Russian in the Chadarim per the requirement of the Russian Government.pushiter-yidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18384873969740962799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-52695985872920649232008-05-22T18:42:00.000+03:002008-05-22T18:42:00.000+03:00"But compared to the issue of women learning torah..."But compared to the issue of women learning torah, the closing of volozhin and some of the other unpalatable revelations in that book, it's much simpler to dismiss a curious onlooker by saying, "Oh, it's bad because it says he read a newspaper on shabbos," than it would be by saying, "oh, it mentions how he was supportive of women becoming scholars."<BR/><BR/>The material about rayna batya is edited in My Uncle the netziv, so it seems unlikely to me that the issue of women learning torah was the focus of the ban.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-45961850963743224752008-05-22T02:55:00.000+03:002008-05-22T02:55:00.000+03:00Believe me, I know the newspaper issue is not actu...Believe me, I know the newspaper issue is not actually a red herring, and is in fact a very big deal. When I read it, it was one more issue that struck me as flying smack in the face of the traditional yeshivish stereotype. <BR/><BR/>But compared to the issue of women learning torah, the closing of volozhin and some of the other unpalatable revelations in that book, it's much simpler to dismiss a curious onlooker by saying, "Oh, it's bad because it says he read a newspaper on shabbos," than it would be by saying, "oh, it mentions how he was supportive of women becoming scholars."<BR/><BR/>I refer to is as a red herring only in that it's an easy way to distract the crowd from the more meatier issues. But yes, I agree, the issue itself is not a red herring at all. It is one more proof that what is considered "Torah True" (TM) behavior has very little basis in our tradition.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-21225086350198262502008-05-21T21:38:00.000+03:002008-05-21T21:38:00.000+03:00The newspaper issue is not a red herring at all. I...The newspaper issue is not a red herring at all. It is about the least un-rosh yeshivah like behavior one can imagine; read the book. It doesn't only say he read a newspaper on shabbos. There's a flowery passage about how Neziv looked forward to the newspaper, and would read it shabbos morning (but not at night, which he felt had to be reserved only for Torah study). Not only did he look forward to it, but he even remarked that a shabbos without that particular newspaper is just not the same.<BR/><BR/>But the real clincher is which newspaper. He didn't mean the Yated or Hamodiah. He was talking about the Maggid, one of the very first Hebrew newspapers to be published (1856-1903). You can read the Maggid's entire archive on the JNUL web site:<BR/><BR/>http://jnul.huji.ac.il/dl/newspapers/hamagid/html/hamagid.htm<BR/><BR/>This particular newspaper was the organ of the haskalah (albeit it was Orthodox in orientation, as opposed to other publications, like the Tzefirah). Furthermore, there was another newspaper, the Levanon, which was equivalent to what we would call Chareidi today (also archived at the JNUL). And the Neziv, according to the book, didn't read the Levanon every shabbos and didn't look forward to it every shabbos and didn't say that shabbos wasn't the same without the Levanon. He said that about the Maggid.<BR/><BR/>To give a tiny illustration of what the Maggid was about: there is a famous incident where a newspaper published a little piece about the young son of R. Yisrael Salanter - his name was Lipmann Lipkin - who was studying mathematics in university. The newspaper highlighted him, and praised his father for being balanced and open enough to have his son study at university. The following issue a letter appeared from R. Yisrael Salanter disputing that he had given his approval to his son's unviersity studies, saying that the facts were to the contrary: he was very sad because of it.<BR/><BR/>Which newspaper was it? Why, it was the Maggid.<BR/><BR/>Now, this does NOT mean that the Neziv was a maskil or that he was in favor of young Jewish men going to university. But the point is that this is not a minor point in the objection to his portrayal in the book. It was a big deal. It was very, very un-yeshivish of him. It may be okay to be a little unyeshivish in your private life, if you're a rosh yeshiva, but the yeshivishe masses aren't supposed to know about it.Mississippi Fred MacDowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02734864605700159687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-52626545183857902232008-05-21T16:53:00.000+03:002008-05-21T16:53:00.000+03:00>...it mentioned something about the Netziv readin...<I>>...it mentioned something about the Netziv reading the newspaper on Shabbat...</I><BR/><BR/>I had heard this idea too, and always figured that the reason for it's popularity was due to the difficult problem faced by the people who banned it.<BR/><BR/>When people ban a book because it has things in it which they find unacceptable, they run the risk of everyone wanting to know what it was that prompted the ban, thereby undermining the whole point of the ban in the first place (to prevent people knowing about certain ideas). Therefore, they need to come up with some less problematic excuse of what is wrong with it, so that when people ask, they can be told something sufficiently "inappropriate", but not the significantly problematic idea itself (or, as in this case, <I>ideas</I>). The newspaper issue is in the book (IIRC, it says that he loved reading the newspaper so much, he deliberately saved it for shabbos), but it is probably the least problematic issue of them all, so they used it as a red herring to distract people from the more significant "problems" of the book.<BR/><BR/>See my other thoughts on this issue in the <A HREF="http://www.haloscan.com/comments/dovbear/1754673227977022254/#461756" REL="nofollow">comment thread</A> at DovBear.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-90853570761748082762008-05-21T16:24:00.000+03:002008-05-21T16:24:00.000+03:00I couldn't help myself.My CommentI couldn't help myself.<BR/><A HREF="http://rockofgalilee.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow">My Comment </A>rockofgalileehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07939653236475167491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-67467197420551031262008-05-21T13:05:00.000+03:002008-05-21T13:05:00.000+03:00Eli G: Glad you liked the post (and the book! :)an...Eli G: Glad you liked the post (and the book! :)<BR/><BR/>anonymous 10:58 <BR/><BR/><I>I've never read the book, but I've heard it said that the book was banned because it mentioned something about the Netziv reading the newspaper on Shabbat</I><BR/><BR/>I'm told he would never read the sports section till motzei shabbat... <BR/><BR/>;-)Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-44933928527358907212008-05-21T13:02:00.000+03:002008-05-21T13:02:00.000+03:00anonymous 10:49 wrote: no one was allowed to do an...anonymous 10:49 wrote: <I>no one was allowed to do anything in volozhin besides learn torah. this includes the [clandestine] zionist organization. what guys did against the rules is another matter entirely.</I><BR/><BR/>Tell me, do you know how to read? It says clearly in the book that the Netziv AUTHORIZED the teaching of Math and Russian within the YESHIVA curriculum. <BR/><BR/>I didn't realize you're so enlightened that you consider Math and Russian to be "Torah". <BR/><BR/>It seems your approach is even more "pro-YU" than mine.<BR/><BR/>Nikki:<BR/><BR/>LOL. NBN's coming after me now ;-)Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-87610364371331056372008-05-21T12:25:00.000+03:002008-05-21T12:25:00.000+03:00jameel -- you should be very careful of the tremen...jameel -- you should be very careful of the tremendous power and influence you wield over the jews of america. look, now anon #1won't make aliya because of you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-13232800610630166022008-05-21T08:20:00.000+03:002008-05-21T08:20:00.000+03:00Anon #1,Just keep banging your head into the wall ...Anon #1,<BR/><BR/>Just keep banging your head into the wall and repeating, "everything rebbe said is true"rockofgalileehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07939653236475167491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-69142351190044358242008-05-21T05:56:00.000+03:002008-05-21T05:56:00.000+03:00Interesting.It reminds me of the debates in the "w...Interesting.<BR/>It reminds me of the debates in the "weaker" of the yeshiva high schools here about playing with the classical daily program. In Kinor David they divide the Beit Medrash learning between early morning and late afternoon, instead of all morning. That way secular studies are late morning and early afternoon. The kids also get more out of the Beit Medrash, since it's not too long at one time.Batyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11246929075812590204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-16099431402185226082008-05-21T05:26:00.000+03:002008-05-21T05:26:00.000+03:00Its interesting you bring up that book, Jameel, I ...Its interesting you bring up that book, Jameel, I found it in my parents house with that letter from Lakewood stapled to it. One guess what I was busy reading that night. Keep up the good work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-63515766163861283432008-05-21T05:19:00.000+03:002008-05-21T05:19:00.000+03:00I found a copy of the book. I can't wait to read i...I found a copy of the book. I can't wait to read it!!<BR/><BR/>Anon #1- I try to be respectful when I comment but you're a conceited sefl aggrandizing moron<BR/><BR/>Anon #2- I'll let you know when I finish itSpecial Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00597292243685024240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-18841305725928302008-05-20T23:36:00.000+03:002008-05-20T23:36:00.000+03:00Anonymous @ 10:49: your pro-yu approach is yet an...Anonymous @ 10:49: <I>your pro-yu approach is yet another reason i will not move to israel in the foreseeable future. that approach/lifestyle is simply unavailable to my family.</I><BR/><BR/>What does Jameel's "pro-YU" approach have to do with you making aliyah?<BR/><BR/>Congratulations, I think you've come up the absolutely dumbest, lamest excuse of all time for not making aliyah...Lurkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05516196101946513020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-25651667493455893502008-05-20T22:58:00.000+03:002008-05-20T22:58:00.000+03:00I've never read the book, but I've heard it said t...I've never read the book, but I've heard it said that the book was banned because it mentioned something about the Netziv reading the newspaper on Shabbat.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-29356894491272375712008-05-20T22:49:00.000+03:002008-05-20T22:49:00.000+03:001. no one was allowed to do anything in volozhin b...1. no one was allowed to do anything in volozhin besides learn torah. this includes the [clandestine] zionist organization. what guys did against the rules is another matter entirely.<BR/>2. your pro-yu approach is yet another reason i will not move to israel in the foreseeable future. that approach/lifestyle is simply unavailable to my family.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com