tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post6894490410282645189..comments2024-03-27T07:01:13.725+02:00Comments on The Muqata: Women of the Temple Mount?Jameel @ The Muqatahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-21327313680109794512010-02-11T02:05:35.142+02:002010-02-11T02:05:35.142+02:00curiously,
since the WOW can daven at Robinson'...curiously,<br />since the WOW can daven at Robinson's Arch, are they having daily minyanim? Are they duchaning there? Or are they just interested in provoking the truly religious?Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01988284974987904623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-16957571797758896992010-02-10T20:56:31.243+02:002010-02-10T20:56:31.243+02:00Are they any different from the deviants that insi...<i>Are they any different from the deviants that insist on marching through hareidi areas , but lack the cojones to continue into the arab neighborhoods?</i><br /><br />Going through a Hareidi area is an expression of civil rights.<br /><br />Going through an Arab area is right wing fascism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-45333000978980297402010-02-10T19:35:31.209+02:002010-02-10T19:35:31.209+02:00Out of curiosity, do the WoW have daily minyanim i...Out of curiosity, do the WoW have daily minyanim in temples, shuls or whatever? Or do they periodically just go to the Kotel to make a political statement and to p-ss off the truly religious? <br /> If the answer is the latter, does one even think that they will continue if they are given a wall space. Are they any different from the deviants that insist on marching through hareidi areas , but lack the cojones to continue into the arab neighborhoods?Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01988284974987904623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-23851358337764836592010-02-10T16:35:38.660+02:002010-02-10T16:35:38.660+02:00I think you should reread the post about WoW. It ...I think you should reread the post about WoW. It wasn't derogatory -- it was about a comparison, and how I believe (and I think many others as well), that there are civil right advocates and funds for liberal, left-minded and egalitarian groups -- and yet those groups and funds refuse to accept any similar civil rights abuse towards those on the right wing side of the political spectrum. That's why the "Human Rights for YESHA" group had to be formed -- since ACRI completely ignored Human Rights for settlers.<br /><br /><i>I'll leave you with this thought, as you brought the NIF back into the discussions- if the future sees the NIF lacking in funds and unable to fund the wealth of health, welfare, and social services projects which EVERY SINGLE ISRAELI READER OF THIS BLOG is a beneficiary of in some way or another, I imagine that everyone who bought into the "Im Tirtzu" propaganda of unpleasantness will find themselves nursing a deep sense of regret.</i><br /><br />Every single Israeli reader of this blog is a beneficiary of in some way or another, of security provided by the IDF. The Goldstone report is being used to attack the IDF and convict IDF soldiers as war criminals. <br /><br />Breaking News: It's all available to readers in English <a href="http://israelbehindthenews.com/library/pdfs/NIFGoldstone.pdf" rel="nofollow">here.</a><br /><br />Why do you think it is that there's so much animosity towards the NIF?<br /><br />Despite your assumption of the "growing legions of Israeli critics" towards the IDF, and Israel's right to defend itself in the Cast lead operation -- I think your average Israeli (and many foreign donors abroad) is disgusted by the NIF supporting organizations that demonize the IDF.<br /><br />Your bottom line is that everything written by "Im Tirtzu" is propaganda, and we should all be bowing down to the NIF and thanking them for making Israel a better place.<br /><br />If we disagree that the NIF isn't the best organization in the world, then we should turn the other cheek and keep our mouths shut, right?<br /><br />Everything we say is lies and propaganda. Everything the NIF organizations say is true.<br /><br />Everything on this blog is a lie and propaganda.<br /><br />Would you prefer we simply get in line and march to the tune of the NIF, the all perfect and knowing organization?<br /><br />The primary difference here is that I listen to differing viewpoints, analyze them, ponder them, and sometimes modify my own.<br /><br />If I'm told that its forbidden to criticize the NIF, then that leaves a rather bitter taste, dontchya think?Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-89262703375548860782010-02-10T15:27:46.726+02:002010-02-10T15:27:46.726+02:00The NIF sponsored organizations who provided 92% o...<i>The NIF sponsored organizations who provided 92% of the information for Goldstone's report contributed to a heck of a lot more "bad feeling" (and world condemnations) than this blog post.</i><br /><br />I disagree. The Goldstone report merely provided the growing legions of Israel critics with more fuel to their fires. <br /><br />Using a blog which is read by so many Jews to attacking Israeli organizations for the purpose of making a (yes, flawed, Lurker- not because I personally disgree with the politics, but because the wider context of the two groups is incomparable) comparitive point about freedom of religion simply leaves a nasty taste all round and doesn't make me feel like I want to come back. <br /><br />I'll leave you with this thought, as you brought the NIF back into the discussions- if the future sees the NIF lacking in funds and unable to fund the wealth of health, welfare, and social services projects which EVERY SINGLE ISRAELI READER OF THIS BLOG is a beneficiary of in some way or another, I imagine that everyone who bought into the "Im Tirtzu" propaganda of unpleasantness will find themselves nursing a deep sense of regret. <br /><br />http://coteret.com/2010/02/04/debunking-the-im-tirzu-report-part-ii-hair-media-critic-on-journalism-as-propaganda/tafka ppnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-39961943322638751992010-02-10T12:29:32.064+02:002010-02-10T12:29:32.064+02:00Jameel- of course I feel more strongly in favour o...Jameel- of course I feel more strongly in favour of WoW than I do re the Temple Mount Faithful. So sue me. <br /><br />But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the difficulty of the struggle of those who want to pray on Har HaBayit. Or would belittle it to make a point about another one.tafka ppnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-48402267967118683202010-02-10T11:32:42.001+02:002010-02-10T11:32:42.001+02:00Finally, the much-splashed media images of the occ...<i>Finally, the much-splashed media images of the occasional breakthru nutjob from the Temple Mount Faithful crew spouting all things intolerant towards "Leftists" don't exactly contribute to the promotion of the cause</i><br /><br />And there are no occasional breaththru nutjobs in WoW, spouting all sorts of venom towards Orthodoxy in general? (Hoping to promote a cause for being davka, instead of simply wanting to daven, as I'm sure most of WoW, are?)<br /><br />You can be disappointed all you like, but civil rights groups couldn't care less about the rights of Jews to pray on Har HaBayit (men or women), let alone visit.<br /><br />No one said that WoW is responsible for skewed media attention...nor was this post bashing the WoW (unless you feel overly defensive on their behalf).<br /><br />The bad feeling is not directed towards the WoW -- rather towards the civil rights organizations (and funders) who would rather ignore civil rights of Jews on the Temple Mount. They don't have a problem providing funds for all sorts of other Arab and Palestinian Civil rights related groups. <br /><br />What I find surprising is that you say we're creating bad feeling by raising a civil rights issue. <br /><br />The NIF sponsored organizations who provided 92% of the information for Goldstone's report contributed to a heck of a lot more "bad feeling" (and world condemnations) than this blog post.Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-37508900045311451182010-02-10T11:10:39.271+02:002010-02-10T11:10:39.271+02:00I would also add that there are no Jews who are de...<i>I would also add that there are no Jews who are demanding that they want to pray in the mosques on the Temple Mount. There are massive, open areas on the Temple Mount where Muslims do not pray at all. Yet Jews are barred by the Police from praying even there!<br /><br />This would be the equivalent of preventing the Women of the Wall from praying even at Robinson's Arch (where they currently do pray).<br /><br />One would expect that people who purport to be defenders of civil rights and the law would be the very first to champion the right of Jews to pray at their holiest site.<br /><br />Their silence is deafening.</i><br /><br />Cmon Lurker. You and Jameel both know perfectly well that the struggle for this "Holiest Site" is not primarily a Freedom of Religion issue, rather one which is mired in a myriad of escalating political and geopolitical concerns, and which has also been championed by many public figures to the Israeli religious or political right - some of whom are none too complimentary about their fellow citizens in the civil rights movement. Further, your average Israeli on the street doesn't feel that lobbying for the right to pray on Har HaBayit is a bigger priority than say, feeding their children. Finally, the much-splashed media images of the occasional breakthru nutjob from the Temple Mount Faithful crew spouting all things intolerant towards "Leftists" don't exactly contribute to the promotion of the cause. So, all in all, plenty of perfectly logical reasons for this "deafening" silence. <br /><br />Yet why would you be surprised or angered that by comparison, the public/media mobilise behind the Women of the Wall's struggle where the discriminatory/sexist elements are far more palatable and clear for all to see? <br /><br />What has most disappointed me about this thread is that there was really no need to seek to belittle the struggle of the Women of the Wall to juxtapose it with the struggle of those who wish to pray on the Temple Mount. To claim faux-shock that the law prohibiting praying on Har HaBayit does not interest civil rights groups, and to somehow decide that the Women of the Wall and those who support them are somehow responsible for the skewed media attention, is just plain ridiculous, I'm sorry. You know where you live, who makes the laws and what interests your fellow citizens. Blame the media/government/wakf/NIF all you want for the state of affairs in this country, but the amount of bad feeling you're creating is not going to do anything to try and find any type of workable solution to the problems.tafka ppnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-44563268651596204642010-02-10T03:12:56.922+02:002010-02-10T03:12:56.922+02:00I wonder why the women of the wall never daven in ...I wonder why the women of the wall never daven in MachpelahDanielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01988284974987904623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-17551228815174658012010-02-10T00:49:16.431+02:002010-02-10T00:49:16.431+02:00LeahGG
According to popular legend, Rashi’s daugh...<b>LeahGG</b><br /><br /><i>According to popular legend, Rashi’s daughters allegedly wore tefillin</i><br /><br />The popular legend I knew about, I was asking for a source. Really, I'm beginning to suspect that this is an ancient version of an urban legend. To quote the statment that there is a popular legend, is akin to coming out with the chestnut that (either the Rav or Rav Moshe) permitted cheese with no hashgacha... Everyone's heard it, no one has a sourceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-11457441569429097782010-02-09T16:12:30.262+02:002010-02-09T16:12:30.262+02:00LeahGG: they're insisting because that's ...LeahGG: <i>they're insisting because that's the main designated area. Where does every tour group go? Where does every yeshiva kid go?</i><br /><br />I affiliate Orthodox, and when I am at the Kotel, I try to daven in the Robinson's Arch area whenever possible.<br /><br />(1) At Robinson's Arch, you are actually standing on very stone pavement from the time of Bayit Sheini. This is not the case in the "main designated area".<br /><br />(2) At Robinson's Arch, you are standing alongside actual ruins of the Temple itself. There is no such thing in the "main designated area".<br /><br />(3) Robinson's Arch is quiet and peaceful, and provides an environment where one can meditate and pray in peace, undisturbed by the loud, annoying, shoving crowds and rude panhandlers.<br /><br />I very much envy the Women of the Wall and the Conservative Movement, who have been granted arrangements in which they can pray there on a regular basis.<br /><br />Anyone blessed and privileged enough to have a wonderful part of the Kotel like this to themselves, and who nevertheless wishes to reject it in favor of crowding into the Grand Central Station atmosphere of the "main designated area", -- where, as you so accurately put it, "every tour group" and "every yeshiva kid" goes -- is an idiot.Lurkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02712938121915827845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-86117567174009890922010-02-09T16:01:32.090+02:002010-02-09T16:01:32.090+02:00if you want to argue with sefer hachinuch...if you want to argue with sefer hachinuch...Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-2882165375971093472010-02-09T16:00:05.325+02:002010-02-09T16:00:05.325+02:00There's a mehitza. If it bothers you so much, ...There's a mehitza. If it bothers you so much, don't look on the other side of it. And again, there are excellent sources for women wearing tfillin. And there is certainly no source for women not carrying a Torah.<br /><br />Tallit might be a more complex matter because of it being the clothing of a man. However, the approach has not been to arrest women wearing pants, so likewise, arresting women wearing a tallit would be inappropriate and fosters sinat hinam.Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-32862485654770222402010-02-09T15:56:12.129+02:002010-02-09T15:56:12.129+02:00Gila: What planet do you live on?
I work and live...Gila: What planet do you live on?<br /><br />I work and live here in Israel, and there's NO segregation of women at my workplace. And we have chareidi women working here as well.<br /><br />Nothing is segregated. Why are you painting such a lopsided picture?Robertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-38403283103770165912010-02-09T15:51:58.862+02:002010-02-09T15:51:58.862+02:00LeahGG: Shoving them elsewhere is kowtowing to the...LeahGG: <i>Shoving them elsewhere is kowtowing to the charedim and is no compromise.</i><br /><br />Why wouldnt anyone appreciate a quieter location?<br /><br />There are Chareidim who believe that women wearing taleisim is a violation of halacha. I agree that the Robinson's Arch area should be open for free 24x7 -- for women to pray as they wish. Yet if they insist on wearing tefillin and taleisim, I can understand why the Chareidim would get so upset.<br /><br />Sinas Chinam is wanting to daven in front of everyone, dafka.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-8143621619131234862010-02-09T15:45:19.781+02:002010-02-09T15:45:19.781+02:00anon: anything that insists that they can't da...anon: anything that insists that they can't daven where everyone else davens is unacceptable.<br /><br />They're not violating any halacha.<br /><br />They're not asking to be on the men's side.<br /><br />Shunting them off where they can't be seen smacks of Jim Crow laws, and yes, there is reason to make a political statement against that. Their point is not only religious, but also political - they are trying to say that the charedim do not have the right to marginalize the women of Israel! Shoving them elsewhere is kowtowing to the charedim and is no compromise.Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-71896933443752812872010-02-09T15:38:44.847+02:002010-02-09T15:38:44.847+02:00Lurker; Why would the defenders of civil rights bo...Lurker; Why would the defenders of civil rights bother with the Temple Mount? <br /><br />The Temple Mount is a Palestinian Site -- not a Jewish one.<br /><br />Palestinian children have been <a href="http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3613/1194/1600/soccer_on_temple_mount6.jpg" rel="nofollow">playing football on the Temple Mount</a> for millennium.<br /><br />If you or your fanatical right wing friends want to cause world war 3 by preventing Palestinian children from playing football on Al Alksa, you had better watch out.<br /><br />NIF is on the vanguard to ensure you don't destroy Israel's fragile democracy by doing something stupid, like praying.Naomi C.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-87162843514908624912010-02-09T15:38:31.928+02:002010-02-09T15:38:31.928+02:00LeahGG: The point is that you know that they woul...LeahGG: <i>The point is that you know that they would be arrested if they tried to daven there because we're already kow-towing to arabs up there. That makes me sick.<br />It makes me sick that we're kow-towing to the pseudo-religion of charedi chumrot at the kotel as well.</i><br /><br />Both of them make me sick, too.<br /><br />If all the people and organizations who fight against kow-towing to haredi fanatics would show some moral honesty by also fighting against kow-towing to Muslim fanatics, then perhaps we could change the situation.Lurkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02712938121915827845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-50587264581292209722010-02-09T15:37:41.647+02:002010-02-09T15:37:41.647+02:00LeahGG: they aren't insisting because that...LeahGG: <i>they aren't insisting because that's where the charedim are - they're insisting because that's the main designated area.</i><br /><br />So that's their reason for wanting to be there? Because the Government designated it as "the main designated area"?<br /><br />And here I thought that their motivation was to pray at a Jewish holy site, for religious reasons.<br /><br /><i>Where does every tour group go? Where does every yeshiva kid go? Where does birkat cohanim happen?</i><br /><br />Who cares? If the reason is to be at the Kotel, rather than to cause a provocation, then all parts of the Kotel are just as good. In fact, some parts -- like the Kotel HaKatan -- are even better.<br /><br />Saying, "No, we only want to go where the big crowds are" is basically saying, "We want to be in everyone's face."<br /><br />Not much of a religious motivation, to put it mildly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-83496892999857757632010-02-09T15:24:22.600+02:002010-02-09T15:24:22.600+02:00I would also add that there are no Jews who are de...I would also add that there are no Jews who are demanding that they want to pray in the mosques on the Temple Mount. There are massive, open areas on the Temple Mount where Muslims do not pray at all. Yet Jews are barred by the Police from praying even there!<br /><br />This would be the equivalent of preventing the Women of the Wall from praying even at Robinson's Arch (where they currently do pray).<br /><br />One would expect that people who purport to be defenders of civil rights and the law would be the very first to champion the right of Jews to pray at their holiest site.<br /><br />Their silence is deafening.Lurkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02712938121915827845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-81103246931294812782010-02-09T15:15:55.962+02:002010-02-09T15:15:55.962+02:00The point is that you know that they would be arre...The point is that you know that they would be arrested if they tried to daven there because we're already kow-towing to arabs up there. That makes me sick.<br />It makes me sick that we're kow-towing to the pseudo-religion of charedi chumrot at the kotel as well.<br /><br />Can't we at least quit the sinat chinam!?Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-61041381147418316392010-02-09T15:13:56.344+02:002010-02-09T15:13:56.344+02:00Leah GG: And whats wrong with Har Habayit?
Wouldn...Leah GG: And whats wrong with Har Habayit?<br /><br />Wouldn't that be even more appropriate?Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-14522850979184660492010-02-09T15:12:47.120+02:002010-02-09T15:12:47.120+02:00TafkaPP Wrote: Jameel- you are wrong in your answe...TafkaPP Wrote: <i>Jameel- you are wrong in your answer to Shira Salome. Over the years I've seen women being assaulted at the Kotel for putting on Tefillin (alone!), and harrassed for holding discreet, non-political prayer gatherings.</i><br /><br />I've seen women daven at the Robinson's Arch area of the Kotel WITH talitot. No one bothers them there at all. They also have police protection -- as this was agreed to by the Supreme Court.<br /><br /><i>The wall is controlled by a bunch of fanatics. And deep down I don't believe Jameel likes this fact either, he is just looking for more angles to drive a (failed) civil rights argument home.</i><br /><br />Failed civil rights argument?<br /><br />Are you telling me that Jews do not have the right to pray at their most holy place? Freedom of Religion?<br /><br />Somehow, I expected more from you -- as a pursuer of civil and human rights.<br /><br />To call it a "failed issue" means your politics have tainted your sense of universal human rights.<br /><br />I expect that from NIF -- but not from you.Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-10645450060545448472010-02-09T15:10:59.060+02:002010-02-09T15:10:59.060+02:00they aren't insisting because that's where...they aren't insisting because that's where the charedim are - they're insisting because that's the main designated area. Where does every tour group go? Where does every yeshiva kid go? Where does birkat cohanim happen?Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13539920.post-82855360391351670572010-02-09T15:09:34.382+02:002010-02-09T15:09:34.382+02:00It is interesting the Women of the Wall want so ba...It is interesting the Women of the Wall want so badly to pray specifically and only at that one particular part of the Western Wall where the haredim generally pray, even though the other availble areas (Robinson's Arch, Kotel HaKatan) are part of the very same Wall.<br /><br />It's hard to avoid the impression that the reason they want so much to pray at that particular part of the Kotel is specifically <i>because</i> the haredim pray there. If the haredim were to abandon it, the Women of the Wall would probably lose all interest in it.<br /><br />And I agree that the Temple Mount is a far preferable place to pray, since it is the real holy site, as opposed to the Kotel. Anyone who defends the WotW's right to pray at the Kotel, but not the Temple Mount Faithful's right to pray on the Mount, is just an out-and-out hypocrite.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com