Walla Gossip Reporter Anat Kamm
Soldier/Spy/Traitor.
Soldier/Spy/Traitor.
Today, an Israeli court ordered that the media blackout be partially lifted on the highly secretive case we reported on the other day.Some of the newly released details are rather sordid and reveal the mindset of some of Israel's ideological leftists -- Anat Kamm, a soldier spy who illegally stole and copied to CD highly classified documents -- over 2000 of them, while serving as a soldier in the IDF's Central Command.
After leaving the IDF, Kamm became a gossip columnist for the Walla news/gossip site and passed the documents to a leftwing, agenda-driven reporter with Haaretz, Uri Blau.
Using these stolen, classified documents, Blau wrote an article in Dec. 2008 which discussed the killing of Palestinian terrorists by the IDF. Blau alleged that the army had held discussions which revealed that the IDF ignored High Court rulings in regards to the targeted killings. Blau claimed the killings were carried out following orders issued by the IDF, even in cases in which the wanted terror suspects could have been arrested.
In September 2009, Blau, via his attorney, handed the Shin Bet 50 of the stolen documents he had received from Kamm. Yet the IDF and Shin Bet's investigation revealed that Kamm had copied and later transferred more than 2,000 documents to the Haaretz reporter -- and Blau had lied to the Shin Bet when he said the 50 files was "all he had."
YNET reports that "some of the documents detailed plans for past and future IDF operations, summaries of meetings between senior IDF officers, combat doctrines, Central Command defense plans, ways of dealing with a possible flare-up in the territories and information on the deployment of IDF forces. "
The Haaretz reporter, Uri Blau has fled to London to avoid arrest by Israel.
With the details released for publication by Israel's court, Haaretz quickly ran to defend their reporter, saying that the Blau's articles were approved for publication by the IDF censor,. Haaretz criticized the Shin Bet:
"Haaretz regrets the sudden change in the Shin Bet's position and its consequences, which have resulted in threats and heavy pressure on a reporter who was just doing his job.
Of course, Haaretz makes no mention that their intrepid reporter knowingly used stolen classified documents, lied to the IDF, and failed to return 2000 stolen files to the IDF as he had agreed.
Now, Israeli intelligence sources are concerned that Blau is a target for hostile intelligence agencies towards Israel and they are already hunting down Blau in London. These agencies plan on exerting physical violence to force Blau to turn over the 2000 stolen, classified IDF files.
How ironic.
Blau's treason and treachery against Israel may end up getting him killed by anti-Zionist agents -- those aligned with the same groups he advocated for, as a leftist agenda-driven Haaretz reporter.
Background Material: YNET, JPost, Haaretz, Rotter.Net
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What is Haaretz's culpability as Uri Blau's employer? The owners/editors/publishers? I would like to see them punished as well.
ReplyDeleteHow exactly is this treason? Were the documents passed to foreign powers or enemies of the state? If not, might be a good idea to be careful flinging around these terms at your fellow Israelis.
ReplyDeleteAdam:
ReplyDeleteLets see what Yuval Diskin, the Chief of the Shin Bet said today:
"During a meeting with newspaper editors Thursday, Shin Bet chief Yuval Diskin referred to the affair as the most severe in Israeli history as far as the damage it could have caused to the country's security.
Diskin said the Shin Bet would make every effort to retrieve the remaining documents. According to him, one of the lessons from the affair is that the Shin Bet should have intervened at an earlier stage.
Diskin defined the documents as "highly classified" which any intelligence agency would be delighted to get its hands on. "If these documents, even part of them, reach enemy hands or foreign intelligence agencies, this could cause serious, ongoing security damage and danger to IDF soldiers and Israeli citizens," the Shin Bet chief asserted. "You don't need to be an expert in information security to understand how much dangerous information there is here." (YNET)
Or from the JPost:
"The documents contained top secret information concerning General Staff orders, personnel numbers in the Central Command, intelligence information, information on the IDF doctrine and data pertaining to central sensitive military exercises, weaponry and military platforms. The files also contained details on what the Central Command does in the event of a major escalation – how it deploys forces to the West Bank and where it stations them there.
The leak “posed a direct and real threat to the lives of IDF soldiers and Israeli citizens,” Shin-Bet Chief Yuval Diskin said Thursday.
Adam: Fellow Israelis who steal classified documents and lie to the Shin Bet, belong in jail with the key thrown away.
In terms of "treason" -- her reasons for the theft, copying the documents, and illegally giving them to a reporter, were to hurt the State and hurt the IDF.
The Shin Bet says that stealing this information "posed a direct and real threat to the lives of IDF soldiers and Israeli citizens"
If a fellow Israeli deliberately poses a threat to her fellow IDF soldiers and citizens, then her actions are treason.
Sorry you don't like the word..."treason...begida"...but that's exactly what she did.
Let her share a jail cell with Tali Fahima.
Here's a fairly typical definition of the word treason, Jameel:
ReplyDeleteOran's Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as: "...[a]...citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation]."
I'm not saying she doesn't belong in jail or excusing what she did, but I don't see any evidence (yet) that there was any intention to pass this information to Israel's enemies.
As for her motives being to hurt the state and IDF, I haven't seen anything except for the quote that her reasons were "ideological" which could mean that, but might also mean different things, such as forcing IDF brass to be more careful in complying with the law. If you have more info on her motives, would love to see it.
Jameel,
ReplyDeleteI think you need to decide whether you are an opinion writing blogger, a propagandist, or a news reporting blogger. You always try to present yourself as the third, but to present this woman as working for the enemies of Israel makes you sound partisan at best.
As Adam said, she should be prosecuted and perhaps incarcerated for what she did. But it is not espionage. Your last paragragh about her intentionally aiding the enemy is not accurate. She is more like Daniel Ellsberg than a spy.
She probably overstepped any freedom the press grants her, and again, should be punished accordingly, but try not to equate everyone who is on the left with traitorous behavior.
Jeff
Looks like the NIF is sending out all their forces to the Muqata to defend some traitors.
ReplyDeleteThe most sorry part of this affair is how Israel's leftist media have fought for the right to reveal treason against the country in front of the entire world instead of helping to make sure Haaretz got its just desserts for helping to betray the country.
ReplyDeleteEven more revealing is that in seeking only a 14 year sentence against Anat Kamm, Israel still fails to grasp the real import of treason: disloyalty that should be punished with death to deter others from committing the same offense. The absence of that is why there is no justice for that crime as well as for murder and kidnapping in the Jewish State.
Adam:
ReplyDeleteIn the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition (Houghton Mifflin, 2009), one of the two definitions given for treason is the following:
A betrayal of trust or confidence.
Anat Kamm served in the IDF, which allowed her access to sensitive, classified documents. The IDF trusted her to keep them secret. Kamm knowingly betrayed that trust, by copying them and turning them over to a journalist for publication.
I'd say that fits the American Heritage Dictionary defintion to a tee, wouldn't you?
For the purpose of deciding guilt it shouldn't matter what her purposes were. Stealing IDF documents for any reason is an offense. It may be relevant in deciding what punishment to mete out since there usually is some judicial discretion.
ReplyDeleteI don't see how you or I could differentiate between "forcing the IDF brass to be more careful" and "hurting the State". A soldier (even a senior one, surely not a junior one) isn't allowed to use ideology or political motives to decide what is or isn't permitted.
The behavior of a reporter in accepting these documents is equally despicable. His obligation is to report the breach and return the documents, not lie about their whereabouts.
These seem obvious to me. Less obvious to me is the responsibility of the reporter's employeer (Haaretz) in aiding and abetting the crime. If they knew about it, which seems to be the case, and supported Uri Blau's running away then they should bear responsibility as well (my first comment above).
I also took a look at the talkbacks accruing on the various source sites that Jameel lists. The Haaretz story in English doesn't have any but the Haaretz story in Hebrew does. All the other talkbacks were running about 90% in condemnation of Anat Kamm. Haaretz was running about 50-50. To some she's a hero.
Jeff: As Adam said, she should be prosecuted and perhaps incarcerated for what she did. But it is not espionage.
ReplyDeleteLet's look again at the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, shall we? It defines espionage as "the act or practice of spying or of using spies to obtain secret information". I'd say that this fits Anat Kamm's actions, wouldn't you?
From the BBC:
Israel lifts gagging order on Anat Kam espionage case
Anat Kam, 23, has been charged with "serious espionage" for allegedly giving more than 2,000 Israeli military documents to a journalist.
Your argument that Anat Kamm's alleged crime is not "espionage" falls rather flat in light of the facts that (1) the entire media (even anti-Israel outlets like the BBC) is using that very word, and (2) the State Prosecutor's Office has formally indicted her for the crime of "serious espionage".
Gee a Moron: my words were forcing the IDF brass to be more careful "in complying with the law". If we have arrived at a situation where state authorities can flout the law and whistles cannot ever be blown in case it hurts the state, then we are in trouble. But of course its a grey area.
ReplyDeleteLurker: we both know that Jameel is using the word in its legalistic and not colloquial sense. I'm not sure exactly how treason is defined under Israeli law but I'd be very surprised if that charge could be made to stick against them in any court.
I agree with NormanF. She should be killed for what she did. But I believe that to set an example, she should either be stoned or strangled to death. A lethal injection or hanging would send the wrong message. The key is that she should suffer for her crime, in order to deter others.
ReplyDeleteThat what you get for giving our secrets to the enemy, Ha'aretz.
Jeff
Jeff: Thanks for your comment; I;d like to clarify these statements a bit.
ReplyDeleteAnat Kamm's actions damaged State Security, and if the documents she stole make their way into the hands of our enemies, then lives will be lost.
The official charge sheet which has been published via Haaretz charges Anat Kamm as follows:
1. Serious Espionage (divulging secret information with the intent to harm the security of the state) - an offense against clause 13b of the Penal Law 1977 (hence: The law).
2. Serious Espionage (gathering secret information with the intention to harm the security of the state) - an offense against clause 113c of the law.
Therefore, while my blog post may be jarring -- it is factually correct based on the news outlets reporting the news, and the legal charges being brought against her.
What exactly bothers you that I reference Anat Kamm and Uri Blau's politics, in reference to the charges of Serious Espionage? Why is that propaganda or opinion, rather than stating the hard facts?
Your last paragragh about her intentionally aiding the enemy is not accurate.
My last paragraph was not about Anat Kamm, but about Uri Blau.
However, intent to harm state security (which is what the official charges against her are) is treacherous.
but try not to equate everyone who is on the left with traitorous behavior.
Jeff: Obviously, not everyone on the left provides classified documents to reporters with intent to harm state security.
However, Anat Kamm and Uri Blau are charged with intent to harm state security -- and their motive was leftist ideology.
Those are hard facts which need to be recognized.
Don't be mad at me -- I'm only the messenger.
Adam: Lurker: we both know that Jameel is using the word in its legalistic and not colloquial sense. I'm not sure exactly how treason is defined under Israeli law but I'd be very surprised if that charge could be made to stick against them in any court.
ReplyDeleteFrom a legal standpoint, she is being charged with 1. Serious Espionage (divulging secret information with the intent to harm the security of the state) - an offense against clause 13b of the Penal Law 1977.).
If Moshe Feiglin could be charged and found guilty of treason, because he organized passive civil disobedient demonstrations against the Oslo Accords, then Anat Kamm's actions which are far more serious, will most definitely be found guilty.
adam: we both know that Jameel is using the word in its legalistic and not colloquial sense.
ReplyDeleteDo we now? Jameel titled his post "Treason and Treachery by Israel's Leftists". Based on what did you deduce that this title is "legalistic" and not "colloquial"? And since "we both know" that Jameel's title is "legalistic", perhaps you can share with us the "legalistic" -- as opposed to "colloquial" -- meaning of the word "treachery"?
Why don't you admit what everyone can plainly see: That there is nothing at all "legalistic" about the post's title, and that what "we both know" in reality is that you took Jameel's common, typical English use of the term, and tried to attack him for it by speciously citing a legalistic definition.
Actually, I wasn't being legalistic in my post's title at all...but the State Prosecutor resolved that by the formal charges a few hours later.
ReplyDeleteLurker - Sure I can share it with you (the legalistic meaning of treachery) - look up sections 97-99 of the law under which Kamm has been charged. These are the treason charges (Vanunu was convicted under them). Note that Kamm has not been charged under them.
ReplyDeleteBased on what did I deduce it was legalistic? Erm, well the fact that the post discusses a legal charge....
Jameel - Feiglin was never charged with treason, he was convicted of sedition.
adam: Sure I can share it with you (the legalistic meaning of treachery) - look up sections 97-99 of the law under which Kamm has been charged. These are the treason charges (Vanunu was convicted under them).
ReplyDeleteNo, that's the legalistic definition of "treason". I asked you for the legalistic definition of "treachery".
So what if she passed a few documents here or there???
ReplyDeleteWhat really irks me is that she is exposing her collar bone in the pic here. That's not tzeniusdik!!! She sure has a lot of nerve!!!
Lurker: treachery and treason are synonyms.
ReplyDeleteadam: These are the treason charges (Vanunu was convicted under them).
ReplyDeleteOh, and since you mentioned Vanunu: How, according to you, could Vanunu have possibly been convicted of treason? All he did was turn over secret, classified documents to a newspaper reporter -- just like Kamm did. And according to you, that's not treason! To quote your own words directly:
"How exactly is this treason? Were the documents passed to foreign powers or enemies of the state? If not, might be a good idea to be careful flinging around these terms at your fellow Israelis."
adam: treachery and treason are synonyms.
ReplyDelete(1) Provide a legal source for this, please. I found no entry for "treachery" in West's Encyclopedia of American Law.
(2) If they are synonyms, then what is the meaning of the post's title, "Treason and Treachery by Israel's Leftists"? Since you insist that this title is "legalistic" and not "colloquial", there must be a difference; otherwise it is redundant, and thus inconsistent with a "legalistic", rather than a "colloquial", interpretation.
That Jameel is unnecessarily redundant and resorts to needless tautologies?
ReplyDeleteHaving discussed similar matters with a number of leftists, I have noticed a pattern that seems to be repeating here. The leftists that I've had the pleasure(?)of talking to about such matters often present themselves as being incapable of grasping the essence of the matter at hand. Instead of comprehending and acknowledging the main issue they argue trivial details and/or descend to engage in debating definitions which sometimes get to hair-splitting. I can't look into the head of the people I've discussed these things so I can't tell if they simply fail to grasp the issue, or try to create a diversion to distract us from the matter. A third reason might be to wear us down with the nonsense and thus it wastes our time. Perhaps they are under the delusion that they engage in a serious intellectual debate. Maybe these ploys are deliberate distraction, maybe they're due to someone who doesn't want to deal with the truth of the issue and so sets up a fog to hide the real matter from their own consciousness. I don't know, but the replies and position(s) of the leftists here follow this pattern of arguing trivialities and nonsense while the facts surrounding main issue is crystal clear.
ReplyDeleteOK then, let's grasp the matter at hand and keep it very simple. What I think myself and a few other people who don't wear a kippa and/or live in the shtachim are trying to say is this. Treason is when you betray your side to the enemy. WHEN YOU GO OVER TO THE OTHER SIDE. Not when you create a security breach to try to gain a political advantage, reprehensible as it is. If Kamm was a traitor she would have taken the information to Israel's enemies - not an Israeli newspaper that operates under IDF censorship!
ReplyDeleteThe Vanunu trial was secret, but he was outside Israel hawking his information around and its widely believed he wasn't just talking to journalists, and the fact that he was charged with treason while Kamm hasn't been is telling.
Blau's treason and treachery against Israel may end up getting him killed by anti-Zionist agents -- those aligned with the same groups he advocated for, as a leftist agenda-driven Haaretz reporter.
ReplyDeleteMay his end not be mourned, his name not be remembered, and his death be exemplary.
Hers too.
Adam - are you assuming that the other side does not read Ha'aretz?
ReplyDeleteThat assumption would make more sense if the other side were rabidly anti-Arab, rather than often rabidly Arab.
And the proper word in Arabic for what Blau and Kam did is 'khianat'.
Why was this known extreme lefty assigned to a sensitive military facility that the nerve center for counter terror operation and other operation in Yehudah and Shomron?
ReplyDeleteHopefully, the Shin Bet will find the NIF connection.
Hopefully, the Shin Bet will stop wasting precious resources and stop harassing and persecuting settlers.
- Dovid from Modiin
Me: Oh, and since you mentioned Vanunu: How, according to you, could Vanunu have possibly been convicted of treason? All he did was turn over secret, classified documents to a newspaper reporter -- just like Kamm did. And according to you, that's not treason! To quote your own words directly:
ReplyDelete"How exactly is this treason? Were the documents passed to foreign powers or enemies of the state? If not, might be a good idea to be careful flinging around these terms at your fellow Israelis."
adam: The Vanunu trial was secret, but he was outside Israel hawking his information around...
Who cares whether he was inside or outside Israel? There were never any allegations that he gave his information to "foreign powers" or "enemies of the state" (to use your own definition of "treason"). He only gave it to a newpaper reporter -- just like Anat Kamm did!
adam: ...and its widely believed he wasn't just talking to journalists...
"Its widely believed"? That's the best you can do to justify your baseless distiction between these two nearly identical crimes? "Believed" by whom, pray tell? Yourself? Apparently, your claim is so "widely believed" that it doesn't even appear in the Wikipedia entry on Vanunu.
Suppose I now say that "its widely believed Anat Kamm wasn't just talking to journalists", without backing my claim up in any way whatsoever. Is that going to change your opinion? How is your identical, unsupported claim about Vanunu any different?
Please provide some proof of your claim that it is "widely believed" that Vanunu offered his information to "foreign powers" or "enemies of the state". Or just give up, and admit that your attempt to draw a fundamental distinction between these two cases is artificial and unsupportable.
Adam: Treason is when you betray your side to the enemy. WHEN YOU GO OVER TO THE OTHER SIDE. Not when you create a security breach to try to gain a political advantage, reprehensible as it is.
ReplyDeleteIf she only did this to "gain a political advantage" why is she being charged with "divulging secret information with the intent to harm the security of the state"?
Intent to harm state security is about as close as you can get to "going to the other side"...both want the state harmed...right?
I'm sorry this bothers you so much, but these are the specific allegations against her.
If you take a top secret document outside of an army facility without legal authorization, you've already compromised national security, no matter what your intentions.
ReplyDeleteIf you divulge it to a source that has the potential of then divulging it to the ENTIRE WORLD, then that is treason.
I assure you that the Mossad/Shabak knows everything reported in Arab newspapers, and likewise the Syrians/Iranians/etc know everything that's printed in Ha'aretz.
Moreover, even if you argue that everything printed in the newspaper is approved by a censor, remember that everyone who had access to the offices in the army supposedly had security clearance.
Who is to say that Ahmed the writer for Arab affairs in the Ha'aretz office doesn't have a cousin who is a member of Hamas or the Islamic Jihad?!
So let's assume that as of now the CD of army tactic information has remained in the hands of Kamm and/or Blau.
ReplyDeleteIf G-d forbid it winds up in the hands of an enemy nation (rather than a political enemy as Adam points out), who is to blame?
Can Blau just say hey I left it under my hotel pillow and the bellhop wasn't supposed to be fishing around? Can Kamm say she only gave it to Blau after he promised it would only be used to smear the army in the papers but not physically?
Unless it comes to light that she did this for money or some other advantage to herself, she obviously felt that whatever wrongs were committed, rose to a level that required her to take the drastic actions that she did. I don't agree with what she did - but trying to do the right thing, even though misguided, is still trying to do the right thing.
ReplyDeleteHere's where I have a major problem though: If I look at the actions taken by the left wing at large and compare them to the actions taken by the right wing, I am overwhelmed by the amount of times that the left wing does things that absolutely endanger our nation and survival. Yes the right wing has a few that have gone off the reservation, but when that has occurred, it is not like the actions of the left that have the potential or reality of bringing the rest of the world down upon us. The fact that this reporter is now in a foreign nation and has this damaging material available for our MANY enemies to possibly intercept means that this can be potentially be more damaging than the Vanunu case. She probably didn't mean for it to end up like this, but the reporter sure as hell should have known better. The mere fact that he was willing to travel outside Israel with it means that this is not about reporting for introspection and improvement, but rather reporting to create the most damage.
It is high time that the left begin examining why they take the measures that they do. They have been wearing the righteous crown for way too long and need to look at themselves in the mirror and realize that the one's that they are hurting are their brothers and sisters, not their enemies.
"What exactly bothers you that I reference Anat Kamm and Uri Blau's politics, in reference to the charges of Serious Espionage? Why is that propaganda or opinion, rather than stating the hard facts?
ReplyDelete"My last paragraph was not about Anat Kamm, but about Uri Blau.
"but try not to equate everyone who is on the left with traitorous behavior.
"However, Anat Kamm and Uri Blau are charged with intent to harm state security -- and their motive was leftist ideology.
Those are hard facts which need to be recognized.
Don't be mad at me -- I'm only the messenger.
"Blau's treason and treachery against Israel may end up getting him killed by anti-Zionist agents -- those aligned with the same groups he advocated for, as a leftist agenda-driven Haaretz reporter"
Jameel,
You are correct. Your last paragragh only refers to Blau, not Kamm. My mistake.
But here's the rub. What I'm reacting to is the line "anti-Zionist agents -- those aligned with the same groups he advocated for." Who are you to suggest that this Ha'aretz reporter somehow has aligned himself with the enemies of Israel? I'm sure you could split hairs and say " I'm just saying that they have common goals, not that they're together." but that would be a crock.
What you're suggesting is that this reporter is anti-zionist. He may be anti the government's strategies for dealing with terrorists, or he may even be anti-government, but what he really is, is a reporter. It's what they do. He may have stepped over a line, whatever Israel's line is for freedom of the press, and he may be prosecuted, but that doesn't make him the equal of a terrorist. He's not advocating for an anti-zionist group, however much you disagree with him. That's what bothered me and still does about what you wrote.
By the way, if commenters on your site wish that Blau and Kamm are killed in some horrible fashion, perhaps you should disallow those remarks or at least comment on them. It's your forum, and the laws of the state , or at least sinat chinam should be something upon which you might wish to take a stand.
Jeff
Jameel, the term you meant is TREASON:
ReplyDelete—Synonyms
1. Treason, sedition mean disloyalty or treachery to one's country or its government. Treason is any attempt to overthrow the government or impair the well-being of a state to which one owes allegiance; the crime of giving aid or comfort to the enemies of one's government. Sedition is any act, writing, speech, etc., directed unlawfully against state authority, the government, or constitution, or calculated to bring it into contempt or to incite others to hostility, ill will or disaffection; it does not amount to treason and therefore is not a capital offense. 2. See disloyalty.
>Yes the right wing has a few that have gone off the reservation, but when that has occurred, it is not like the actions of the left that have the potential or reality of bringing the rest of the world down upon us.
ReplyDeleteDidn't Yigal Amir, kill, like, the Prime Minister of Israel?
Didn't Baruch Goldstein kill, like 29 people in the Me'arat Hamachpela?
Don't many Israeli settlers illegally construct whole villages in the West Bank?
Etc.
I would hope everyone would agree that these events arguably have done things to put Israeli lives in danger, right?
>If she only did this to "gain a political advantage" why is she being charged with "divulging secret information with the intent to harm the security of the state"?
ReplyDelete>Intent to harm state security is about as close as you can get to "going to the other side"...both want the state harmed...right?
It may be helpful to remember that just because the state is charging her with a crime that has a certain intent component, does not mean that she actually had that intent. That's just what they are accusing her of.
So, is anyone concerned with whether, you know, the IDF is illegally killing people or what?
ReplyDeleteAdam and Lurker -
Black's Law Dictionary has separate definitions of treason and treachery.
Treason is "[t]he offense of attempting to overthrow the government of the state to which one owes allegiance, either by making war against the state or by materially supporting its enemies."
Treachery is "[a] deliberate and willful betrayal of trust and confidence."
(I don't think treachery is an offense, merely an adjective used to describe an act.)
If Jameel's title was legalistic, then he was accusing her of attempting to overthrow the Israeli government through foreign intrigue or war and betraying a trust or confidence. It certainly seems that she betrayed a confidence, but I see no indication that her purpose was to overthrow the GOI through war or foreign intrigue. Perhaps she wished to overthrow the present government by applying pressure through democratic means, but that's not treason.
If Jameel was being colloquial, he either intended treason to mean something similar to the legal sense (violently overthrowing the government) or something closer to betrayal. If he meant overthrow, then he is again hurling a baseless accusation. If he meant betrayal, then he was just being redundant.
Under the well worn canon of interpretation that you construct the meaning of a sentence so that each word has meaning, he was accusing her of the legal crime of treason.
Also, who really calls betrayal treason? When somebody snitches on you, you really call that treason?
I think we should distinguish now between the angle taken by the foreign reports (disappearance of journalist) and what is now concentrated on in Israeli media.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I hear, they are now concentrating too on Uri blau still holding 2000 less 50 highly classified documents, most of which seem to have nothing to do with the army ignoring high court rulings, but a wide range of general secret info about the army.
Some papers are saying that foreign powers will try to get their hands on the material blau is holding.
At any rate, I do not understand how people can say it is OK that a soldier indiscriminately copies a wide range of documents that she knows are secret and gives them to someone else. What is all the semantics about, about whether it is treason or not?
Yes the right wing has a few that have gone off the reservation, but when that has occurred, it is not like the actions of the left that have the potential or reality of bringing the rest of the world down upon us.
ReplyDeleteDidn't Yigal Amir, kill, like, the Prime Minister of Israel?
Didn't Baruch Goldstein kill, like 29 people in the Me'arat Hamachpela?
Don't many Israeli settlers illegally construct whole villages in the West Bank?
Etc.
I would hope everyone would agree that these events arguably have done things to put Israeli lives in danger, right?
Nice technique, just like the other apologists above-substitute your words for what I wrote...I clearly mentioned that there are those on the right that have gone off the rails, and yes those actions could have endangered our lives. I said that the left does things that are calculated to bring the rest of the world down on us. And BTW, building in Judea & Samaria is not illegal. The idiots that attacked us and lost territory refuse to settle this thing once and for all. This is the result. Tough beans.
Amazing that no one has called you a fascist yet...
ReplyDeleteFYI - according to nana / channel 10 news - Uri Blau was going to report the plans of the Cast Lead operation - 1 week before the operation started
ReplyDelete(read it /see it here: http://news.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=711090 )
That to me is treason, treachery, stupidity and whatever other evil descriptions I can think of.
And yes, both deserve to be killed - as a lesson to all lefties...
Jeff: I agree with you that its wrong for commenters to state that Blau and Kamm should meet some horrendous death. They should be tried for the crimes they committed.
ReplyDeleteMore on the rest of your comments later...(erev shabbat stuff to do)
Amazing that no one has called you a fascist yet...
ReplyDeleteIf you are referring to me...If they did, I couldn't care less. My actions are not based upon what others think of me. Too many people are confused as to what is right and wrong in today's world. Things are upside down.
Posted a link to this discussion at http://www.eretzyisrael.com to discuss the reasons why the left continually engages in this kind of destructive behavior and whether they consider themselves to be part of the Jewish people as a whole or not.
ReplyDeleteVox Populi said:"So, is anyone concerned with whether, you know, the IDF is illegally killing people or what?"
ReplyDeleteOur army killed a commander of an enemy army that is constantly engaged in trying to kill our civilian population. Am I concerned? I would be concerned if they didn't.
There are plenty of leftist judges and politicians in this country. If Kamm wanted the army procedures reviewed passing along a couple of related documents to the authorities would have been far wiser.
ReplyDeleteOne must try to envision the spiritual aspects at play here (what happens down here is happening in Shomayim). We are moving faster toward the Geula and events are intensifying.
ReplyDeleteI think a trial would be excellent, because then the left can give its reasons why it wants to take down the govt. and the govt. thru the trial can bolster its idealism, zionism, and ostricize the leftist/liberal ideology. IOW put ALL the LEFTISTS AND THEIR TREASONOUS IDEAS ON TRIAL.
This will clarify in the minds of ALL Israelis what they believe in, and force ALL ISRAELIS to make the ultimate CHOICE.
This may be a blessing in disguise because it may just force all Israelis to take sides and then the lefties/liberals can be squashed/stopped to an extent. This is also a siman that the same thing will happen in the US, ostracizing the liberals, voting them out of office (which is underway), and possibly a (worrisome) Right Wing backlash.
The political events in each country mirror each other. It will only make Israel much stronger because they will be more focused on survival.
You thought Bibi had to be strong so far, there's much more to come.
Two words: Pentagon Papers.
ReplyDeleteHi Gila - Till your comment, I had never heard of the Pentagon Papers, so I thank for bringing them to my attention. Reading up on them via Wikipedia, I see that its really a case of apples and oranges.
ReplyDeleteWhile the Pentagon Papers impact was about USA policy -- the 2000 stolen documents from the IDF are far more severe and pose a real threat of the lives of the IDF soldiers and Israel's citizens.
From Wikipedia:
The most damaging revelation in the papers was that the U.S. had deliberately expanded its war with carpet bombing of Cambodia and Laos, coastal raids on North Vietnam, and Marine Corps attacks, none of which had been reported by media in the US.[5] The revelations widened the credibility gap between the US government and the people, hurting President Richard Nixon's war effort.
The papers also revealed that four administrations, from Truman to Johnson, had misled the public regarding their intentions. For example, Johnson had decided to expand the war while promising "we seek no wider war" during his 1964 presidential campaign.
From the JPost:
"The documents contained top secret information concerning General Staff orders, personnel numbers in the Central Command, intelligence information, information on the IDF doctrine and data pertaining to central sensitive military exercises, weaponry and military platforms. The files also contained details on what the Central Command does in the event of a major escalation – how it deploys forces to the West Bank and where it stations them there.
The leak “posed a direct and real threat to the lives of IDF soldiers and Israeli citizens,” Shin-Bet Chief Yuval Diskin said Thursday.
The Pentagon papers embarrassed the USA, while the bulk of the stolen documents here actually cause a serious threat to our security.
Daniel you do not speak for respectable right-wingers, so go somewhere else.
ReplyDeleteShira- sadly, the "Daniel" commenter has become pretty symptomatic of Muqata readers of late, and I for one do not understand why Jameel is encouraging their presence with posts such as these.
ReplyDeleteRegarding "Parshat Anat Kamm"- as Yedidya Meir summed up on his Friday radio show, this is very clearly a multi-level news item- it has been extensively commented in the press in terms of either espionage, journalistic integrity (or lack thereof), Israeli system failure, IDF corruption and failure (in terms of the serious "policy violation" that Kamm's little spying jaunt uncovered) and multiple issues surrounding freedom of the press. There is a lot to discuss here and a lot to get shocked and angry over.
Yet The Muqata, for a reason unfathomable to me, chooses to present an entirely political angle, amping up hate-rhetoric against the Left to enable yet another opportunity for all the faithful to join in. (I think that comment about an NIF connection was my personal favourite.) From the title of this post and until the very last word, this is all the proof that one needs that "respectable" people on either side of the political spectrum are not likely to continue reading this blog if it continues to degenerate into Arutz 7 sinat chinam territory.
I have already communicated my disappointment to (my friend) Jameel, offline. I do not expect him to respond here publically. However, I will end with this thought:
Today is Yom HaShoa, where we recall the sheer power and consequence of the unleashing of unbridled hatred. If we are to survive, we Israelis have to unify, and quickly, and stop painting each other as the "enemy." It really is that simple, and anyone who wishes to disagree with this comment and throw back a caustic comment about how the Left/Right are the true cause of the problem of our degenerating disunity will only prove my (very sad) point.
What a great way to shut up valid criticism.
ReplyDelete1-First generalize and say that most right wingers are represented by the positions of Daniel, though only one made that comment.
2-Threaten that most respectable lefties will leave the blog if Jameel keeps posting posts that lefties don't like having discussed. Considering the lefties that have been commenting on this post: (a) none are leaving, (b) none of you are very respectable (using your Daniel logic).
3-Next, minimize the 2000 classified documents that Kam stole in her little espionage jaunt... because ONE may (or may not) indicates something that you believe is a policy violation, which may instead be an updated operational definition of acceptable collateral damage in a hot pursuit operation.
4-Next, use NIF tactics to try to shut up the criticism. First downplay yet another leftwing espionage attempt to damage the country and then claim that by discussing it we are using hate rhetoric... you forgot to add that we are harming democracy. Oh you did. You mentioned freedom of press. I guess that's a one way street... pointing left.
5-Finally if that doesn't work, mention the Holocaust. Because if we on the right don't stop publicizing the repeated acts of damage the left are causing the country with their spying, their running to the EU and others with unfriendly agendas, not to mentioned their acts of outright incitement and violence, then we on the right are causing the disunity.
Great job. Do you work for the NIF or just get money from them?
If Anat Kam had leaked some details about misbehavior of army officials or EVEN documents detailing that, I might give credence to anything that says she's not 100% traitor.
ReplyDeleteSince she also took documents detailing mission plans, she could have caused (and may still cause) the death of citizens and soldiers. I don't buy that she's too stupid to realize that taking specific military plans outside of a secure location risks lives. That's treason.
@Vox
Yigal Amir did not risk the country's security. His act was horrible and heinous, but there was no threat to national security from his action.
Baruch Goldstein believed that he was preventing an attack. His actions may have been misguided and mistaken, but he was trying to protect lives of Israeli citizens.
There is no evidence that if there were not one single settlement in Yesha, there would be peace or even fewer attacks. In fact, all evidence points to the opposite.
Anat Kam's actions were (at best) to expose the army to scrutiny and protect combatants on the other side.
So if you're comparing, nope. Apples to socks. There is no comparison.
TafkaPP:
ReplyDeleteAnat Kamm's politics are what drove her to steal and leak the documents. Had her only driving factor been IDF corruption (Generals ignoring orders of the Bagatz), then her crime could be seen purely within the framework of trying to seek justice. That action is debatable within a democratic society.
[Of course, Israel's police ignore the Bagatz all the time when it comes to allowing Jews free access to ascend the Temple Mount, and you can be sure if that was ever touched by a right winger that involved documentation theft, the right would be slaughtered in the media, but I digress.]
The primary point here isn't at all the 50 (only!) documents she stole and leaked which allegedly referred to IDF 'corruption', rather the point is the other 1950 documents which seriously impact Israel's security and could lead to loss of life among our soldiers. Haaretz's reporter then deliberately lied to the Shabak and kept the additional 1950 stolen documents.
Both Kamm and Blau's politics were the driving factor behind their actions, and its imperative that people understand that.
My post didn't say, "All Leftists are Traitors". I didn't say, "I don't want to live in the same country as fallen leftist IDF soldiers" (as Haaret'z associate reporter said last week about Eliraz Peretz).
This post isn't about sinat chinam -- its about how people's politics drove them to espionage.
Bringing in Yom HaShoah to say that we are fighting against each other instead of the real enemy is simply wrong. Its quite possible that the classified documentation theft and criminal actions of Kamm and Blau will lead to the deaths of Jews at the hands of our enemies.
To the tiny minority of Muqata readers who are "nasty" on this subject, the issue is serious enough (and stands on its own merit) without needing to resort to nasty/stupid comments.
TafkaPP; Would you agree they are no different than the "tiny" minority who throw rocks and act violently at the Sheikh Jarrakh Friday demonstrations (except of course, they aren't actually hurting anyone violently, just being an "annoying" tiny minority?)
Anat Kamm's politics are what drove her to steal and leak the documents. Had her only driving factor been IDF corruption (Generals ignoring orders of the Bagatz), then her crime could be seen purely within the framework of trying to seek justice. That action is debatable within a democratic society.
ReplyDeleteSo Jameel, I take it you've spoken to Anat Kamm and are basing your conclusion on proven facts? (Or are all "Walla Gossip Columnists" (sic) automatic Leftists?!)
"Sammy Shomron"'s response to my comment unfortunately proves my point, although I was sincerely hoping not to have to play "told you so" here.
"Sammy"- two things. 1) I'm not trying to "shut up valid criticism." The Kamm/Blau Parsha is genuinely shocking to all Israelis, irrespective of where they are on the political spectrum, and I think we're all following it very closely with much trepidation. I'm simply disappointed in the overtly political tone that Jameel choose to present the "facts", and that (unlike him) he didn't present an objective piece. Disappointment in this case is my right, as is yours to disagree. You don't have to be so nasty, though! 2) The "Leftists" still commenting on this blog are few and far between, as you will know if you're a regular reader. Occasionally Muqata posts get ambushed by ISM-type orgs/bots, but in terms of the sizeable middle-left following of "real people" that the Muqata could once claim, we are largely disappearing, and the writers are well aware of this... whether it particularly bothers them or not is a different question!
Finally- there is nothing "wrong" with "bringing in Yom HaShoah". What remains "wrong" is the hateful tone of this post, twisting an extremely serious matter for all Israelis into a Left-bashing one. My closing comment pointing out the date was not aimed to provoke: It was simply to emphasise that sweeping hatred is sweeping hatred, and none of us are above the dangers of it, and as Jews in a Jewish State we are even more beholden to make sure that it doesn't divide us.
"NIF-type orgs/bots" too.
ReplyDeleteNIF is investing a lot in their blogger defense fund.
TafkaPP: Historically speaking, all those of who have ever been accused of espionage against the Jewish State, they were always leftwing. Take the Red Front and Matzpen for example;
ReplyDeleteAt the end of 1972 many of its members were arrested and charged with espionage and collaboration with the enemy (Syrian military intelligence), based on a secret trip some of them took to Damascus. None of the activists detained and charged were members of Matzpen at the time, or at the time they committed their alleged offences against state security. In a well-publicised trial in 1973 five members of the Red Front were sentenced to various periods in prison.
When Right wing Jews (wrongfully), "go off the derech", they shoot Arabs, try to blow up a mosque, etc.
When Left wing Jews (wrongfully) "go off the derech", they participate in espionage or try to embarrass the State of Israel (like the VP Biden "Ramat Shlomo" announcement, courtesy of Jerusalem's Meretz rep).
tafka pp: ira- sadly, the "Daniel" commenter has become pretty symptomatic of Muqata readers of late, and I for one do not understand why Jameel is encouraging their presence with posts such as these.
ReplyDeleteThat's quite unfair. Whatever your objections to Jameel's post, there is nothing in it whatsoever that bears any sort of resemblance to, or encourages anything like Daniel's dumb comment.
Tell me, are all the leftists at the Friday protests in Shimon HaTzaddik responsible for "encouraging the presence" of the minority of protestors who injure Jewish worshippers by throwing rocks at them? Would you blame the presence of the "mainstream" protestors for "encouraging the presence" of the rock throwers? No? Well, then why is Jameel to be blamed for "encouraging their presence" of comments like Daniel's?
tafka pp: There is a lot to discuss here and a lot to get shocked and angry over.
Yet The Muqata, for a reason unfathomable to me, chooses to present an entirely political angle...
Oh, but the the reason is quite fathomable. See my post on the subject.
I visit this blog often enough to see that lefties comment often enough and are given equal opportunity to air their views and then usually ignore any and all flaws pointed out in their arguments. I see often enough that they try to shut up their opponents with threats that the lefties will leave the blog, or that those whose opinions they disagree with are extremists or hurt their cause.
ReplyDeleteI noticed for instance that you repeatedly defend the NIF every time you visit.
So I ask the question again. Do you work for or receive money from the NIF, that you so blindly defend them, even when they are indisputably in the wrong?
Aw, Tafka, you're disappointed? Should we all cry in our cornflakes now? Really. So you're saying that since it's unproven (by a court? by who? by you?) that's she's a real live leftist, we're not allowed to judge her actions in a political light (even though it's been reported that she was ideologically driven. But you're right, why should we trust the press about anything).
ReplyDeleteBut all rightists are insensitive racists. Have I got that right? Seriously, it's attitudes like this that make dialogue with left wing fanatics impossible.
I think it would be more honorable to just admit that someone from your camp made a grave and dangerous mistake rather than this whole rigamarole about how disappointed you are. Be disappointed about endangering thousands of lives.
Jameel just called me all excited saying I need to read these latest comments, especially the last one.
ReplyDeleteI'll tell you this. When Commenter Abbi expresses a position that I can agree with, then there is no reason to be overly worried about disunity in the Jewish people.
tafka pp said...
ReplyDeleteShira- sadly, the "Daniel" commenter has become pretty symptomatic of Muqata readers of late, and I for one do not understand why Jameel is encouraging their presence with posts such as these.
Between your feigned outrage and amateurish pivot you have all but answered my question.
I suppose you would say that groups like Queers Against Israeli Apartheid are actually good for Israel.
Its about time you idiots stopped harassing Anat Kam. She's trying to help Israel's democracy.
ReplyDeleteIf you want an example of who's threatening democracy, it's that fascist "Im Tirzu" organization, which is spearheading the war against Israel as a modern democracy.
They want a law to mandate transparency of foreign government donations to NGOs...like NIF.
I can only quote the words of Naomi Chazan: “This law has to disappear, it is the single most dangerous threat to Israeli civil society since its inception.”
Anat Kam isn't the danger to Israel -- Im Tirtzu, you loser commenters here, and your evil bills are the single most dangerous threat to Israel.
You can't be for real, this must be a joke, right?
ReplyDeleteThis law has to disappear, it is the single most dangerous threat to Israeli civil society since its inception
Really? Transparency is the biggest threat? It is the biggest threat to those that want to hide their real agenda's though...
From the NY Times article
ReplyDeletePerhaps the most alarming sign to rights advocates was a preliminary vote in Parliament supporting a bill that called for groups that received support from foreign governments to register with Israel’s political parties’ registrar, which could change their tax status and hamper their ability to raise money abroad. It swept a preliminary vote in the 120-seat Parliament in February with 58 in favor and 11 against.
...
But rights organizations say that they are already required to list publicly the sources of their funding, and that the bill is actually intended to stifle dissent.
...
For now, the bill has effectively been blocked until its proponents reach agreement with the Labor ministers in the governing coalition, who are trying to water it down.
...
But Ms. Chazan said the bill could not be finessed.
“This law has to disappear,” she said. “It is the single most dangerous threat to Israeli civil society since its inception.”
NIF supporter:
ReplyDeletesarc alert
Hard to tell with some of these - although this did seem like the biggest troll in the history of mankind!
ReplyDelete