Monday, February 09, 2009

The Muqata’s Guide to Voting in Israel’s Elections.

Assumptions: This guide takes into account the following assumptions

1. You believe Jews are entitled to a State of their own, which can be first and foremost, Jewish. That means the official character of Israel will be first and foremost, Jewish. How exactly that synthesizes with “Democratic” is a daily challenge for Israel.

2. You believe in justice. Crime does not pay, criminals are not rewarded for criminal behavior and letting criminals go free without having paid their debt to society is unjust and immoral. The same should apply to terrorism.

3. You believe in Israel’s historical right to living in the land of Israel. If you think Israel should be in Uganda, or that Israel’s does not historically have the right to be in this region of the world, this guide is not for you.

My first election year in Israel after moving here was in 1992.

I clearly remember a Shabbat lunch in 1991 with previous Minister of Finance, Moshe Nissim (Likud) who was sure the Likud would win in the 92 election. When I asked about the future of settlements in YESHA (West Bank and Gaza), he replied that they would exist forever. I said, “what if the left wing wins?” He replied that Israel was balanced between left and right, and settlements would always continue.

Less than a year later, the election came around. The intifada was mostly over except for occasional stabbing terror attacks. Israelis routinely shopped in the “West Bank” Arab cities of Beit-Lechem, Ramalla, Kalkilya, and Jenin. Israel’s intelligence services estimated that terrorists had less than 20 semi automatic weapons in the entire West Bank.

The election commercials from Meretz were “news broadcasts from the future”, that went something like this: “Today is yet another wonderful day in Israel. There are no traffic jams anywhere in Israel since Israel stopped building superhighways for settlers in the occupied territories, and invested all that money in pre-1967 Israel roads, education has never been better since Israel has earmarked all funding away from settlements to Israel’s schools, and our quality of life has never been higher, since we no longer need a huge military budget to keep the IDF occupying the territories. The weather is perfect as well. If you vote Meretz, this will not be a dream, but our future.”

Despite there being more right wing voters, the left won the election, and within months the green line reappeared, guns, ammunition and terrorists flowed into Gaza and the West Bank, and the worst terror attacks Israel had ever experienced started – suicide bomber explosions. Settlers were demonized, ostracized as crybabies, and the root of all of Israel’s problems. Rabin, Israel’s Prime Minister openly declared that he was only Prime Minister of 98% of the country…and the Oslo Accords were in full bloom.

Fast Forward to today.

Most pollsters will not outright predict a win for the Likud over Kadima and the margin of error makes it to close to call.

Therefore, in the upcoming election, I will be voting for the Likud.

Yes, it's not simple for me to state that outright -- as my background is Bnei Akiva, Orange, Gush Katif, Mafdal, Ichud Leumi, and even a bit of Aguda. I view myself as a die-hard supporter of Eretz Yisrael, and am firmly against the idea of a Palestinian State, let alone territorial compromise. I abhor post-Zionism, and despite the horrors of Oslo, the Disengagement, Amona and the continued maltreatment of the Gush Katif refugees, I am not anti-mamlachti or anti-IDF, though my views are far more pareve these days on the "intrinsic kedusha (holiness)" of Israel's government that the mamlachtim advocate.

My big fear is that the 2008 election will be similar to the 1992 election. In 92 there were more right wing voters than left-wing, yet we woke up with Rabin, Beilin and Peres running the country, leading us down the path of Oslo.

Due to the multiple flaws in Israel's electoral system, Yisrael Beiteinu is currently taking votes away from the Likud, weakening it on a daily basis to the point that the next government may not even be led by Netanyahu, but by Livni. I am not a fan or supporter of Netanyahu, but I am a bigger opponent of Tzippi Livni. With the current polls they way they are, I feel that the only option available is to vote for the Likud, so that Netanyahu is going to be the one forming the next government. Every vote for Leiberman's Yisrael Beitinu is a vote against the Likud, and reduces the possibility that the Likud will form the next government.

I see no value for voting for the Ichud Leumi or Bayit Yehudi in the upcoming election, if Livni is the one forming the government. If Kadima forms the government, there is a guaranteed plan in place for the expulsion of at least an additional 60,000 Jews from their homes in Yehuda and Shomron, and we'll probably lose the Golan.

Could this happen under the Likud? Perhaps. Yet when comparing options, at the end of the day, do we want a guaranteed plan for expulsion under Kadima or a possible option under Likud? While my heart wants to vote for the parties that are ideologically closest to me, my head reminds me that feeling good about my vote will not help in the slightest if Kadima wins the election.

The only flaw to my reasoning above is as follows: if votes are lost because the Ichud Leumi or Bayit Yehudi do not pass the achuz hachasima, then its possible that even if Likud does win, the coalition will still be center-left. Yet there is a limited amount of responsibility I can take for solving all of Am Yisrael's problems. Voting Likud means there will be an excellent majority within the Likud who think like we do, and gives us the best chance that the Likud will form the next government.

Leadership

Religious Jews do not yet make up a majority of the IDF, nor do they make up a majority of any party that can lead the country. Minority parties will always be just that -- the minority.

Narrow sectoralism -- viewing everything through the prism of what is good "for your own interests" may garner results and perks for a particular sector, but are lost in the court of Israel's public opinion, creating fractured divisiveness on the scale of a colossal Chilul Hashem (Desecration of G-d's name).

Are the perks that Shas get for their yeshivot really worth the vicious, hateful response of everyone else? Are the results of additional settlement outposts really worthwhile on the grand scale, if viewed by Israel's public as a benefit solely for the "settlers" and the exclusive result of Ichud Leumi's lobbying? If these policies came from the Likud, as part of their platform, they would be much more accepted by Israel's public.

While the founders of Israel may have thought our parliamentary system would be a good method to enable multisectoral representation, the result has been a failure, especially for the right wing. The bitter politics of Israel over the past 16 years have proven that sectoral representation is fracturous to Israel, and the pro-Eretz Yisrael people have lost the most. The clichéd "we haven't settle in their hearts" slogan simply means we have only settled in our own right wing cacoonish parties, with close to zero representation where it really counts, in the large leadership parties, if we are ever going to lead Israel.

Only by getting more "orange" people into the Likud will we ever have a chance to lead this country. Only through a large, mainstream party will we ever be able to lead. There will never be a Prime Minister from the Mafdal or Ichud Leumi, because they are a sectoral, narrow-issue parties.

If Ichud Leumi and Bayit HaYehudi magically got 15 seats between them, and Kadima beats Likud by 1 vote, then your entire argument is pointless. Livni will be the next Prime Minister, and the net effect of Ichud Leumi or Bayit Hayehudi on Livni's policies will be zero.

While I despise Netanyahu's spineless (or self-centered) views on Eretz Yisrael, he is still the lesser of the evils, and our only chance to possibly retain any territory from Yehuda v'Shomron.

With the polls as close as they are today, I cannot honestly risk being the one to make Livni the Prime Minister.

And that's why I'm voting for the Likud.


PS: I'll probably add more to this later.

Wherever I am, my blog turns towards Eretz Yisrael טובה הארץ מאד מאד

42 comments:

Shimon said...

...If Ichud Leumi and Bayit HaYehudi magically got 15 seats between them, and Kadima beats Likud by 1 vote, then your entire argument is pointless...

this is not accurate it is not a question of Likud vs. Kadima is is Right vs. Left

With the way the tide shifts in this country I think the "big party" claim is overrated. Likud can go from 11 to 30 in almost no time. even Lieberman can go from 10 to 25 in just two weeks.

I dion't see why a joint Mafdal Ichud Leumi could not have caught a tailwind and gotten over 15 seats. We have too little confidence in our own abilities.

Jehoshaphat said...

You are essentially advocating the stance of Moshe Feiglin.

I generally agree with that stance and so I am registered Likud and make sure to vote in Likud primaries. I was also planning to vote Likud until a few days ago. But
at this point I am having second thoughts.


I am thinking maybe I will vote Likud and have ask my wife to vote Ichud Leumi (I wouldn't want to delegate the dirty work to her). That would kind hedge our bets.

jj said...

You fail to explain why a vote for Lieberman is a vote against Netanyahu.

Also - how can you vote for the same people that voted for the disengagement?

Shimon said...

I might as well (shamelessly) plug my own thought as well

http://lahag.blogspot.com/2009/02/living-dream.html

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Shimon: this is not accurate it is not a question of Likud vs. Kadima is is Right vs. Left

I'm highly doubtful that the Likud will create a Ring Wing only government....while Kadima definitely would...with Leiberman.

With the way the tide shifts in this country I think the "big party" claim is overrated. Likud can go from 11 to 30 in almost no time. even Lieberman can go from 10 to 25 in just two weeks.

The reason it's over-rated is because the Likud does not yet have real representation of all the sectors in it. It can happen.

I dion't see why a joint Mafdal Ichud Leumi could not have caught a tailwind and gotten over 15 seats. We have too little confidence in our own abilities.

Where do you see all these seats coming from? You honestly think we have the numbers for it?

Jehoshaphat: Yes, I share some of Feiglin's views as well.

I would think the polling numbers are too close to risk Livni winning, by voting for Ichud Leumi instead of Likud.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

jj: You fail to explain why a vote for Lieberman is a vote against Netanyahu.

Lieberman's votes are for the most part, coming at the Likud's expense. Therefore, a smaller Likud means a better chance that Kadima will beat it.

Also - how can you vote for the same people that voted for the disengagement?

The majority of the Likud's are people who voted against the Disengagement. (see my initial list here which explains why overall, the Likud has a decent right wing "orange" list)

Shimon said...

Obviously now the NR camp is split and splintered. I just wanted to point out that had we been able to all come together especially in wake of the last war we could have presented a very strong front.

From there k'she-olim al hagal it is not impossible that we could have picked up a few more seat just out of sheer momentum

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Shimon: The NR camp has no leadership, which explains why it's split and splintered.

Till a very serious leader comes along, it will remain split because everyone's egos are far too big.

Mrs. S. said...

Thanks for this great post. It's very helpful for those of us whose political/ideological/"hashkafic" views match your own.
ט"ו בשבט שמח

Shimon said...

Jameel: with that I agree (very sorrowfully). The price we shall all pay for it remains to be seen

BlackBeltStep said...

I have heard this argument going around, yet I have a fundamental problem with it as a religious Jew. I am assuming we agree on the basic tenet that, while our hishtadlus in all aspects of life is required, ultimately, it is Hashem who runs the show, and decides the way the direction of our personal lives, as well as that of clal and eretz yisrael, will go. What is demanded of us is to live by our beliefs and perform according to the way we understand is the "Torah way".

By voting Likud because you have come to the conclusion that since they are the lesser of two evils it would be better if they would win the elections, is in opposition of that tenet, to say the least.

First of all, not a single democratic election in the history of the world was won by one vote. Now, of course, you will say, "so based on that argument, why vote at all?!" I'll get to that in a moment.

And second of all, if you disregard all of your political calculations, and you believe that Likud would not be good for our people, why do you you think that by voting for them it would end up good for our people?

I am voting Ichud Le'umi. You see no value in voting for them because your calculations are based on the fact that you think your vote will have an effect on the outcome. I am voting based on who I believe are the best leaders for our country (given the options), and what Hashem decides will result in the winner. That is hishtadlus - to determine what I believe is the proper derech, and go with that. Not to ignore my ideologies because I think my actions will actually change the world, let alone a political election.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Hi Blackbelt:

First of all, not a single democratic election in the history of the world was won by one vote.

Are really certain of that? The Clinton-Bush election of millions of voters was down to under 500 in Florida.

And second of all, if you disregard all of your political calculations, and you believe that Likud would not be good for our people, why do you you think that by voting for them it would end up good for our people?

Overall, I honestly believe the Likud is good for us. I'm content with about 75% of those on the list...my primary issue is with Netanyahu.

From your hashkafic standpoint:
...what Hashem decides will result in the winner. That is hishtadlus

This particular argument is extremely difficult in the face of free will.

Perhaps our hishtadlus is making the best pragmatic, realistic (though difficult) decision?

I personally don't think that emuna alone is enough to create a nes-nigleh that Ichud Leumi would get 61 seats in a democratic election (which is the only way either leadership would be offered the job of Prime Minister)

Remember, many of the Kings and leaders of Israel in the time of Tanach were far from perfect.

Regardless, we will all need lots of Chasdei Shamayim, whoever wins.

Jeremy said...

I understand what you're saying- I just can't bring myself to vote for Bibi.

Can't do it.

mkf said...

I have devoted 3 posts in my blog to this and agree... I am also voting Likud for basically the same reason. I agree with the platforms of Ichud Leumi etc. but if Kadima wins, so what? I dare say however, that the strong anti-Bibi sentiment isn't really deserved - he's been given more than a bad rap by a media which hates him ...and Feiglin may not be who you all think he is...so give Bibi a chance this time to prove his worth. :)
www.todayinisrael.blogspot.com

BlackBeltStep said...

Jameel:

1. True, if we forget about the 58,000 missing absentee ballots and all the other irregularities, it was down to under 500 votes. Still more than 1 though. :)

2. Voting Likud = voting Bibi. Doesn't matter who is on the list, Bibi will have no problem with pulling a "Sharon" and firing and hiring according to his own personal political agenda.

3. Although we will most likely not solve the Free Will dilemma here and now, I have no problem with being given the free will to create the flavor of my life with my own decisions and actions according to my understanding of what I am supposed to be doing, knowing full well that the results will not necessarily be correlated to my personal plans and goals. This has definitely been my experience in life until now.

4. I would agree with your suggested definition of hishtadlus, as long is it does not include taking the path that goes against my beliefs and ideals, which is what voting for Bibi would be doing.

5. Maybe I gave the wrong impression - I am under no delusion that Ichud Leumi will get anywhere close to 61 seats. Either Bibi or Livni is likely to win. But my voting for the lesser of two evils (at least that's what we hope) is still voting for an evil. (Just an analogy!) Why would I vote for an evil, when I can vote according to my ideology? And if my vote really does count, why not put it to good use by strengthening what I believe in, not what I don't believe in? In any case, what gives me the hashkafic right to vote against my beliefs just because my man won't become PM?

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Jeremy: Instead of thinking of it as a vote for Bibi - think of it as vote against Livni and Barak.

Vote with your head instead of your heart.

MKF: Regarding the strong anti-Bibi sentiment... If anything, the Kadima ads actually make me PRO Bibi. They lambaste him for allegedly "stupid" decisions, like opening the Kotel tunnels, and the botched Mossad operation against Khalad Mashal in Jordan. The operation against Mashal was crucial (if he had succeeded, then Hamas would never have grown the way it did), and releasing Sheikh Yassin in exchange for the captured Mossad agents in Jordan is nothing compared to what Livni is willing to release in exchange for Gilad Shalit.

However, Bibi's political backbone is rather weak, and I'm not thrilled with him as Prime Minister. He would make an amazing Foreign Minister or Minister of the Treasury...

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

BlackBelt (BB? :-)

2. Voting Likud = voting Bibi. Doesn't matter who is on the list, Bibi will have no problem with pulling a "Sharon" and firing and hiring according to his own personal political agenda.

You give Netanyahu way too much credit. He's not nearly "powerful" enough a leader to "pull a Sharon".

3. Although we will most likely not solve the Free Will dilemma here and now, I have no problem with being given the free will to create the flavor of my life with my own decisions and actions according to my understanding of what I am supposed to be doing, knowing full well that the results will not necessarily be correlated to my personal plans and goals. This has definitely been my experience in life until now.

Like you said, we won't discuss it now...

4. I would agree with your suggested definition of hishtadlus, as long is it does not include taking the path that goes against my beliefs and ideals, which is what voting for Bibi would be doing.

Again, we don't know what Bibi will do. We DO know what Livni will do. I doubt that Bibi will be worse than Livni, considering the right wing make up of the current Likud list.

5. Maybe I gave the wrong impression - I am under no delusion that Ichud Leumi will get anywhere close to 61 seats. Either Bibi or Livni is likely to win. But my voting for the lesser of two evils (at least that's what we hope) is still voting for an evil. (Just an analogy!) Why would I vote for an evil, when I can vote according to my ideology? And if my vote really does count, why not put it to good use by strengthening what I believe in, not what I don't believe in? In any case, what gives me the hashkafic right to vote against my beliefs just because my man won't become PM?

What gives you the right? "Lo Bashamayim Hee" is what demands of us to make pragmatic, rational decisions.

The way Israel's electoral system is made up today, voting for our exact ideologies through sectoral parties gives us much less of a chance of realization of our ideals.

Here's a similar situation:

There are many places to live in Israel. Some people want a community of people exactly like them. This ensures their children will not experience any "differentness" till they leave home, and then it may be much more challenging for them to deal with it. It also means your interaction with other different people is much more limited, as is your influence on people.

If you lived in a mixed, heterogeneous community, the potential for influencing people is much greater.

aschoichet said...

I think there is a basic misunderstanding of how the process works in your guide. Even if Kadima beats Likud by a few seats, Liberman, Shas and the orange parties will pick Natanyahu to form the next government, and he will have a safe majority over Livni. Liberman is a demagogue, opportunist etc. etc. but there is no way in the world he will recommend Kadima over Likud. Even if he attracts some voters from the left and center, his base is the Russian rightwing vote and he will never abandon the Russian public.

Secondly, the last time the Likud got over 30 seats (under Sharon), it ended in a catastrophe for the right, something that the left would never have been able to do if the Likud was in the opposition. From an orange point of view the Kadima government (a weak leftist government) was much better than the previous so-called right-wing government. For all his evil intentions, Olmert hasn't destroyed one settlement and hasn't given away a centimeter of land. And this despite the fact that there is a very divided and ineffective opposition in the current Knesset!

In my opinion a weak Likud government with an influential orange presence is the best scenario. The second best scenario is a weak leftist government with the Likud in the opposition. The worst scenario is a strong Likud government.

I'm voting ט tomorrow.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

ashoichet: Sorry, but Leiberman, Shas and the orange parties dont pick Netanyahu to form the government, Shimon Peres the President of Israel, does.

He will decide who he thinks is the most capable to form a government. Left and Right are meaningless to him, and he would prefer (as President) for a "centrist" government.

Most of the "zevel" from the Likud left to Kadima, which is a good thing. Olmert destroyed Amona, has negotiated a deal with the PA to throw most of the Jews out of Yesha (which Livni has available if she choses), threw Jews out of the Shuk homes in Hevron, threw Jews out of the legally purchased Beit HaShalom in Hevron, threw the Federmans out of their home near Kiryat Arba, destroyed the maachazim of Shvut Ami near Kedumim, maachazim in Gav HaHar, negotiated to give away the entire Golan, split Jerusalem, and worst of all -- ended the Cast Lead operation prematurely.

There's no way there will be a strong Likud government -- so you dont have to worry about that option.

The options are either a weak Likud government or a moderately weak Livni government.

If you had to chose -- which would it be? (Those are the 2 likeliest scenarios)

You may not like it, but that's the reality of tomorrow's vote.

NormanF said...

What needed is not quantity but quality. Judaism got started because of a few courageous people with backbone who swam against the tide and left a large impact upon the world. I'm under no illusions having a few good people in the Knesset who believe in G-d and in the Land Of Israel will be able to change things overnight. In the long run though, passion and ideas count for more than mere numbers. We want to work for long term change not just a government that lasts for a season. Something to think about here.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

NormanF:

1. Quality instead of Quantity does not "cut it" in the harsh world of democratic politics. The few do not overcome the many and become a government.

2. Bringing quality people to a large party (in my view) seems like a better way to positively influence people and make for change, than to start with a small sectoral party.

We differ not on the outcome, just on the strategy of how to achieve it.

aschoichet said...

I'd choose a weak Likud government, speaking "from the gut," because my ideological views are much closer to those of the Likud. Also because, as you mention, there are quite a few good people on the Likud list such as Yaalon, Begin, and Rivlin (although I'd disagree that they are the majority).

However, this would probably be the wrong choice, judging by the lessons of recent history. The gut tells me that the Likud will be better than Kadima, but the brain says that until the Likud turns orange, it's place is in the opposition. Therefore, I would never vote for Natanyahu, and people like Livnat, Shalom, and Katz who are still major power brokers in the Likud. I cannot with a clean conscience vote for people who supported the expulsion, and will undoubtedly support another one if they are given the chance.

Regarding Peres, if a majority of MKs recommend Natanyahu he will not pick Livni to form the government. And even if he does there is no way that she will be able to form a government, if the latest opinion polls are anything to go by.

By the way, how did you vote in 2003? I voted for Mafdal-haIhud haLeumi, and my vote did not help bring Sharon and Olmert to power.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Peres doesn't have to poll every MK, he speaks to every party leader about if they will join a government with PM "X"...and the President has the power to chose who he feels will make the best government.

I agree with you regarding the drek still left in the Likud, but their power has been significantly reduced in the current list. Dr. Leah Ness even beat Livnat to a better spot (which I'm very happy about).

From reading the polls, Im worried that Livni will be forming the next government. The best I can do to change that situation is to vote Likud. I'm not thrilled about it, but see it as the only responsible option (someone has to take out the garbage I guess).

I voted against the Disengagement in the Likud referendum, and took my kids from house to house in Tel Aviv convincing Likud members as well.

That's hishtadlus.

Despite our tremendous victory, over 67% against the Disengagement, Sharon did what he did.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Despite our tremendous victory, with over 67% against the Disengagement, Sharon did what he did.

JLan said...

"Are the perks that Shas get for their yeshivot really worth the vicious, hateful response of everyone else?"

No. But continued support for a chief rabbinate that oppresses geirim is. I'm much rather see no chief rabbinate at all than I would the continuation of the Sherman-istas.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

JLan: No. But continued support for a chief rabbinate that oppresses geirim is. I'm much rather see no chief rabbinate at all than I would the continuation of the Sherman-istas.

Amen.

Baila said...

Good analysis for us newbies. I had narrowed it down to the two parties and will probably decide at the polls, but you make a good argument for Likud.

Truth is, I think either way, I think we're screwed and we really have to pray and trust in The One Above.

JoeSettler said...

I am voting Ichud Leumi. As long as Likud gets more seats than Kadima (which is what it looks like it will be at the moment), then Lieberman is more likely to go with Likud.

In which case, we need more seats in a RW party.

And if Lieberman goes with Kadima, we still need more seats in a RW party.

A Soldier's Mother said...

Well, great minds think alike...or maybe desperate ones do...same disgust at having to do this...same conclusion:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/8567

tomorrow I'll go to the polls with a clothespin so I can hold my nose while I vote for Likud and know that either they will prove worthy of my vote this time (as opposed to all the rest of the times), or know this will (hopefully) be the last time I will feel compeled to do it.

A Soldier's Mother said...

Joe - sadly, this what you wrote isn't true. The president (God help us) has the right to choose the party he believes can form an election. If he wants, Peres can choose Livni is she gets the same - and even if she gets less votes than Likud.

We all need to send a message to Netanyahu...but if we end up sending such a strong message that he isn't elected - good for us - we've got Livni...and then God help ISRAEL!

simon said...

as a regular RW voter, this election, im voting for Kadima - the main reason is that the RW has become so insiteful and racist during the current campaign. A campaign that has been hijacked by Lieberman and his friends (supported by Bibi) picking on the Arab population of the state. The RW camp should be ashamed of themselves for how low they have gone this time around.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Simon: I'm really curious how you concluded that the RW wing camp in general is racist and inciteful, and that voting for Kadima, is the solution.

You think that voting for convicted sex predators like Chaim Ramon is good for Israel? Kadima, the party which thumbed its nose at the people it threw out of their homes in Gush Katif -- is a party you want to support?

Give me a break -- you don't sound like a "regular RW voter" but a typical Kadima hack. (The same Tzippi Livni type that Ari Shavit warned us about).

I can see people voting for Labor, Greens/Meimad...even Chadash or Meretz. Kadima is simply the party of zero ideals.

Anonymous said...

WRONG JAMEEL. KADIMA IS A PARTY OF ZEROES.

A Soldier's Mother said...

Simon - the most interesting thing about your post is that you are not voting for Kadima for anything that they do. You haven't said a single thing GOOD about them (which I happen to be glad about, since that shows you are being honest, at least on that point). Have you nothing GOOD to say about Livni and Kadima? Perhaps about the wonderful, honest politicians that make up the bulk of the party? About how they stood strong and didn't buckle?

No, you can't say anything good about them - and so you are voting, supposedly, not FOR Kadima, but against Likud. By the way, you are upset that Lieberman and Likud are "picking on the Arab population" - are you not upset that the Arab population has been picking on us? Did you not notice the terrorist attacks - 4 and counting, in Jerusalem - perpetrated by "Israeli" Arabs? Did you not notice the rioting, the stoning, the firebombs - all because Israel dared to try to stop the rockets against us?

No, sorry, it truly sounds like you are trying to convince people not that Livni is good - after all, who could be stupid enough to believe that...so you try to convince us that she and Kadima are the lesser of the evils. Having lived in Israel for the last three years (not to mention more than a decade before that), I can assure you, that is not true. The evil that began under Ariel Sharon is alive and well in Kadima. And the good news, hopefully, is that tomorrow, the majority of Israelis will show that they know this.

Renegade said...

"Despite our tremendous victory, with over 67% against the Disengagement, Sharon did what he did."

And this is a reason to vote likud?
I must be missing something...

shaun.spain said...

leftists will vote for kadima because leftists are not as stupid as rightists are
kadima is not the party of zero ideals, kadima is the "withdrawal" party, thats why israeli media supports it and leftists didn't (and won't) vote for Avoda.
kadima wont creat gov with liberman, it will create a coalition pro-withdrawal, kadima, avoda, meretz, green,whatever...
if likud cannot win this election, kadima will be the winner, and if kadima wins Israel is really fucked up

A Soldier's Mother said...

well gee, shaun.spain - why don't you tell us what you really think? Don't hold back now... :-)

As I've said before - tomorrow I will go to the polls and vote for Likud because I can't think of much worse for israel than continuing with Livni and kadima's defeatist, surrender-first, attitude. Beyond that, I believe that Likud - with the right partners (right as in correct and right as in right) WILL lead this country properly and correctly; better the security situation and the economy. My heart will be with Ichud Leumi...but my vote will go with Likud because if I and others put our votes with Ichud Leumi and end up with Livni...the great message we wanted to send to Bibi will have been wasted.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Renegade; "Despite our tremendous victory, with over 67% against the Disengagement, Sharon did what he did."

And this is a reason to vote likud?
I must be missing something...


As I wrote, most of the dreck left the Likud to form Kadima. Sharon, Olmert, Livni, HaNegbi, Hirschenson, Edri, Aflalo, Ruchama Avraham...all the sellouts.

(And I agree 100% with an Israeli Soldier's Mother's sentiments above.

It's too easy to vote Ichud Leumi...but someone has to be responsible and do the right thing for the sake of the country.

Renegade said...

Jameel,

The main point I was trying to make is that while you make a strong argument on the big party vs. small party issue, you haven't been very convincing that Bibi will be much better than Livni.
Do you really trust Bibi?

Can you honestly risk being the one to vote into power the party that brings us the next expulsion?

shaun.spain said...

I told you, vote for likud, we dont need just a nationalist party in the gov, we need a nationalist and diplomatic president to deal with the international community and obama, both anti-israelis. There were never more people against palestinian lies, the media is always propalestine but every day more people is becoming a less propalestine, we dont need now a PM saying we have to expel antipatriots arabs openly, maybe there're reasons to say that but the PM has to be diplomatic. The plan to divide jerusalem is fixed! kadima wont tell it openly but the US and kadima has the plan fixed and they will do it step by step

http://www.carolineglick.com/e/2007/01/where_israel_went_astray/index.asp

veteran voter said...

Soldier's Mother- 3 years?! Sorry to break it to you, but you are still fresh off the boat! Come tell us who we should be voting for after you've voted in a good few Israeli general elections and truly understood what a self-perpetuating cesspool the governance in this country is.

The poster who said we're all screwed has it right- you've all forgotten that the elections have already taken place: None of Bibi's strutting and pathetic grandstanding will hold any weight once Obama tells him that he must withdraw to 67 borders or lose the foreign aid.

Renegade said...

veteran voter said:
"Soldier's Mother- 3 years?! Sorry to break it to you, but you are still fresh off the boat!"

You should read what she said a little closer:
"Having lived in Israel for the last three years (not to mention more than a decade before that"

she wasnt saying she only lived there for 3 years, she was saying the last three years were particularly bad for the jews.

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