Saturday, January 30, 2010

A retraction and apology from JoeSettler

Sometimes when one is used to looking at a situation from a particular angle, it becomes difficult to immediately realize there may be another angle involved, particularly when duplicitous intentions use a valid argument as cover.

Last week I wrote a post commiserating with Naomi Chazan vis a vis police violence and general misuse and abuse of their power, particularly when silencing political dissent. Having witnessed and having been on the receiving end of such official abuse of power (along with Jameel and Lurker) to do just that on more than one occasion, the complaint was quite credible.

It was natural that I, an advocate of the democratic rule of law and equal and fair application of it towards all citizens should join in protest against measures that were once solely used against us on the political right.

But now I feel like a dupe.

Everyone knows about Bi’ilin. The violent Friday battles between the police/IDF and the various united groups of Leftists, Communists, Anti-Zionists, Arabs and others who unite to deny the Jew the right to Eretz Yisrael (much less recognize our right to buy or own land) .

To some it seems it simply become a violent Friday ritual to pass the time.

And if it were a stand-alone event, I would perhaps agree.

But what we are witnessing in Bi’ilin is organized. You can see that it’s organized because the model is being duplicated in other locations.

We’ve been seeing it in Hebron, where Leftists try to incite the Arabs on Fridays against the locals, but there the army has a tight grip so it has been less successful. It’s been going on for weeks now near Neve Tzuf, where the Leftists and Arab have been escalating the protests and violence against the police/IDF.

And now it’s come to Jerusalem.

What we are seeing in Jerusalem, near Shimon Hatzadik, is following the same formula. Leftists leading Arabs, and the two escalating their protests. Eventually the violence begins (if it hasn't already), and it becomes a weekly ritual drawing more and more resources from the security forces.

How long until this is occurring in 10 places, in 20 places, in 100 places instead of 4 or 5?

How thin will the countries security resources be spread as this Intifada expands.

That’s right. Intifada.

I’ve said. It’s begun.

But this Intifada is different. It’s more sophisticated. It smells of Leftists.

This intifada is targeted. It’s targeted in location, in subject, in tactics.

It’s led by Leftists, our own fifth column, who use the Arabs as pawns (they’re used to that by now).

But that’s what it is.

In this case I believe the security forces identified the pattern and realized what the Jerusalem protest is leading into.

Have their actions nipped it in the bud? Absolutely not. But it at least appears they do know what they are up against, and that’s a start.

I completely withdraw my sympathy to Chazan, and I apologize if my position last week led anyone else to mistakenly share that incorrect view.

What we are dealing with here is nothing less than a new front in the war against the State of Israel.

There are no options here; to quote Haim Ramon [simultaneously making a fist in hand motion] the government has only one choice to make here, “Crush them!”

(Thanks to Hodaya Krish-Chazoni for pointing out some salient facts in this weekend’s Makor Rishon)


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37 comments:

Shlomo said...

In other words: People you like (the right) should be allowed to violently incite against the police/IDF in opposition of government policies. People you don't like (the left), shouldn't be allowed to.

Yeah, you're a "advocate of the democratic rule of law and equal and fair application of it towards all citizens". Really.

Shira said...

Shlomo -

Does it matter according to your equation who performs the violence, or just that the overall scene is violent?

Devorah said...

Shlomo -

Just so we understand, you are condemning the violence on the part of the Friday protesters at Niilin, Halamish, and Sheikh Jerash?

Lurker said...

Shlomo: In other words: People you like (the right) should be allowed to violently incite against the police/IDF in opposition of government policies.

I'm sorry, Shlomo, but I seem to have I missed the part in the post where Joe wrote that. Could you please be so kind as to point it out to us? (A simple copy and paste of the statement in question will do.)

Thanks so much.

Kae Gregory said...

The leftists should look to Sweden. They've adopted the attitude of the Swedes who in ten, or at the very most 20 years, will be wondering why they are no longer welcome in their own country.

Neshama said...

In this week's issue of the English Mishpacha there is a nice article about the NGO functioning in our Land, funded by the EU, causing havoc. In this article a lawyer has challenged the EU to supply documentation concerning their funding of these groups.

I wouldn't be surprised if the 'intifada' you speak about is channeling EU funds to organize this unrest.

Neshama said...

slight correction:

I wouldn't be surprised if EU funds are being channeled to organize this 'intifada'.

Anonymous said...

Similar article in hebrew

http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/046/583.html

tafka pp said...

I have some shocking news for you, Joe- the Sheikh Jarrah protesters and the Bilin-Naalin anarchists are NOT cut from the same cloth. Not even close. Sorry to nip your (unpleasant) little theory right in the bud. But it is the center-leftists who are beginning to flock to Sheikh Jarrah. Not a "fifth column". No no. If you were to stop by on any given Friday, you'd see tax-paying, IDF-serving, proud Israeli Jews. (Even some kippot in the midst.) You know some of them. And more and more arrive weekly, and will continue to do so as the momentum spreads. Because they are just as concerned as you are about the future of the State of Israel, which they love and want to see survive.

So perhaps you'd like to put a lid on this jingoistic talk against your fellow Jews, and start working out what steps your own "fifth column" can take to bridge the ever-widening gap? Unless, of course, you feel that the bridging of this gap does not concern you, and you'd prefer to write inciteful posts about your fellow countrywo/men's right to protest as "a new front in the war against the State of Israel"?

tafka pp said...

Neshama- be aware that no organization, EU funded or otherwise, is officially responsible for organizing the protests. Various organizations left-of-center are obviously encouraging their members to take part, but the large majority of protesters are concerned unaffiliated Israeli citizens.

JoeSettler said...

pp: Unfortunately you are being naive.

JustaLittleCynical said...

Because they are just as concerned as you are about the future of the State of Israel, which they love and want to see survive.

Which is why they are protesting the rightful return of Jewish-purchased properties to their owners.

Lurker said...

tafka pp: I have some shocking news for you, Joe- the Sheikh Jarrah protesters and the Bilin-Naalin anarchists are NOT cut from the same cloth. Not even close. Sorry to nip your (unpleasant) little theory right in the bud. But it is the center-leftists who are beginning to flock to Sheikh Jarrah. Not a "fifth column". No no.

This ISM press release states explicitly that a significant portion of the demonstators in Sheikh Jarrah came directly "in cars from the Bil'in and Ma'asara demonstrations".

tafka pp: If you were to stop by on any given Friday, you'd see tax-paying, IDF-serving, proud Israeli Jews.

Mm-hmm. So do you think that the ISM's membership can be accurately described as "tax-paying, IDF-serving, proud Israeli Jews"?

tafka pp: ...be aware that no organization, EU funded or otherwise, is officially responsible for organizing the protests.

The ISM receives funding from the EU. On the ISM website are numerous press releases announcing upcoming Sheikh Jarrah demonstrations organized by the ISM. Here is an example of one.

Uri Avnery's Gush Shalom also receives funding from the EU. As I'm sure you know, Avnery, who regards Meretz as right-wing, would take great offense if someone described him as a "center-leftist". The Gush Shalom website proudly lists this past Sunday's Sheikh Jarrah demonstration as an example of "Gush Shalom in Action". It also notes that its weekly demonstrations in Sheikh Jarrah are "much like the demos in Bil'in, Nilin and other places". Apparently, just like the ISM, they too don't agree with the distiction you try to draw. According to the press release, the demonstration even included a press conference by Avnery.

Anonymous said...

OMG Lurker! You definitely ripped that commenter a new one. From all your well-researched retorts I've read over the past year, this one takes the cake.

realRightWinger said...

Here is another demonstration - this last friday in Lod !

Below - copied page from rotter.net - you can watch the videos on YouTube below.

הפגנה פלסטינית בלוד, חלק ראשון:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkqmGcH8cws

הפגנה פלסטינית בלוד, חלק שני:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCBz2FMHZ30


מאות פלסטינים הפגינו בשישי (ה-29 בינואר) בלוד במחאה על הרס מבנים בלתי חוקיים בעיר. המפגינים צעקו כנגד מדינת ישראל ונופפו בדגלי אש"ף. בין המפגינים: מנהיגי הציבור הערבי וחברי כנסת. ההפגנה נערכה על פי יוזמת ועדת המעקב העליונה של האוכלוסייה הערבית. המפגינים צעדו ממסגד דהמש, דרך רמת אלישיב אל עבר בית עיריית לוד.

הפגנה זו היא חלק ממהלך מתמשך ומגמה ברורה של נסיון השתלטות פלסטיני על לוד ושכתוב ההיסטוריה. ארוע זה מצטרף לרצף אירועים על רקע לאומני המתרחשים בלוד, ובהם זריקת מטענים על בתי יהודים, הצתת בית כנסת (תזכורת: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THa8usVFA1E) וארועי יידוי אבנים.

צולם על ידי יניב בן דוד

Lurker said...

Anonymous: From all your well-researched retorts I've read over the past year, this one takes the cake.

Thanks for the compliment, but there really wasn't much in the way of research involved. I simply went to the home pages of the ISM and Gush Shalom, since they were the first two radical leftist EU-funded organizations that I thought of. And on both home pages, there were announcements and articles about the respective organiztions' involvement in planning the Sheikh Jarrah demonstrations.

There was no hidden information to ferret out; ISM and Gush Shalom are positively blaring it at the top of their lungs. The whole thing took me less than three minutes.

Shlomo said...

Just so we understand, you are condemning the violence on the part of the Friday protesters at Niilin, Halamish, and Sheikh Jerash?

I am. (BTW, it's funny how you take my opposition to right wing violence as proof that I must support left wing violence. It never even crossed your mind that I might oppose all violence.)

I'm sorry, Shlomo, but I seem to have I missed the part in the post where Joe wrote that.

How about the part where he talks about Beit Hashalom, which as any googling will show you involved violence by the right wing (including the shooting of an Arab child).

JoeSettler said...

Lurker,

When he says Beit Hashalom, is he referring to the legally purchased property (by Jews) in Hebron, where the IDF and police used extreme force to expel the legally residing (Jewish) residents from said property?

So he must be saying he opposes violence on the part of the government, police, and IDF against right wing Jews who are simply exercising their basic human right to buy property - a right allowed to any other individual or group.


(Muhammad al-Dura? He's alive by the way.)

JoeSettler said...

JPost reports that the PA is assisting in funding and escalating the violent protests at Bil'in, Na'alin,. Neve Tzuf (Halamish).

Since Lurker has shown from their own websites that Gush Shalom and ISM (among other 'center-left' groups) admit to being heavily involved in these and the Jerusalem protests, the conclusions are obvious.

Lurker said...

Shlomo: In other words: People you like (the right) should be allowed to violently incite against the police/IDF in opposition of government policies.

Me: I'm sorry, Shlomo, but I seem to have I missed the part in the post where Joe wrote that. Could you please be so kind as to point it out to us? (A simple copy and paste of the statement in question will do.)
Thanks so much.


Shlomo: How about the part where he talks about Beit Hashalom...

Um... excuse me? "The part where he talks about Beit Hashalom"? Which part is that?! I just re-read through the entire post three times, and I cannot find even a single reference to "Beit Hashalom", let alone a statement that in any way justifies incitement to violence by the right, as you are claiming.

You made a very serious accusation against JoeSettler, namely that his post says that "the right should be allowed to violently incite against the police/IDF in opposition of government policies". When I asked you to point out where his post says any such thing, you replied that it's in "the part where he talks about Beit Hashalom".

But as anyone with eyes in his head can see, the post does not even contain the words "Beit Hashalom".

So once again, I ask you: Please show us what statement in Joe's post says what you are claiming he said. Once again, a simple copy and past of the words will suffice. Please, show us exactly where the post says that "the right should be allowed to violently incite against the police/IDF in opposition of government policies". And this time, please give us the actual quote, rather than a meaningless, unexplained reference to a topic that isn't even mentioned in the post.

We're all waiting.

Lurker said...

JoeSettler: When [Shlomo] says Beit Hashalom, is he referring to the legally purchased property (by Jews) in Hebron, where the IDF and police used extreme force to expel the legally residing (Jewish) residents from said property?

Who knows? Who can possibly imagine what the heck Shlomo is referring when he says "the part where [JoeSettler] talks about Beit Hashalom" -- since your post didn't talk about "Beit Hashalom", or even mention that word?

Maybe we'll know what he's referring to when he is finally courteous enough to point out to us the statement in your post that he thinks justifies his outrageous accusation.

It's difficult to escape the distinct impression that Shlomo attacked you without even having bothered to read the post...

JoeSettler said...

It could be he was referring to one of my earlier posts where I:

1) described how the government violently destroyed the Federman farm and my visit to Beit Hashalom.

2) mentioned IDF/police violence at Beit Hashalom in the original Naomi Chazan article.

3) discussed the hilltop youth I met at Beit Hashalom, and how most are good kids who will grow up to be community leaders, but a few are kids with serious problems that need intervention and help within a framework.

Devorah said...

"including the shooting of an Arab child"

Hello? Are you all going to let that comment slip by? When exactly did this happen?

Maybe it was on the Pallywood channel.

JoeSettler said...

Devorah: He's probably referring to the incident were a group of Arabs attacked an Israel citizen and he fired back in self defense against the group attacking him. The State dropped all charges against him.

The citizen, Zeev Braude, 51, suffered a head wound (requiring 36 stitches) and a dislocated jaw in the attack.

tafka pp said...

Joe- before telling me I'm naive, come this Friday (some of your friends were there last Friday, albeit counter-demonstrating ;-) ) maybe see for yourself who is there, and why? I think if you're going to brand it an "intifada", it at least deserves your full attention, no?

Lurker- sorry, but your research- admirable to some though it may be- doesn't reflect the reality on the ground. The ISM, while jumping noisily on the local bandwagon (as they are wont to do) still have made up only a fraction of the protesters in recent weeks. Again, the large majority have been Israeli natives, as I described. Now I didn't say that there were no anarchists against the wall there at all, just that Sheikh Jarrah was completely different to Biliin in terms of crowd make-up (and I actually know the difference! :-) )

And of COURSE Gush Shalom were there in force (and taking credit, yes, they like to do that) they're on a high, feeling very empowered to not be solely consigned to the hard-left this time- especially being as they're attracting a lot of new, center-left attention and support, something which has eluded them for a while.

Now- regarding EU funding- first, your source who told you that ISM receive funding from the EC is completely incorrect.(ISM have an interesting funding policy, I can elaborate more if you're interested.) And when you say "Uri Avnery's Gush Shalom also receives funding from the EU" I'd check your facts there too.

BUT overall, time to break the myth that the EU exclusively funds hard lefty orgs. Obviously, being as sustainable peacebuilding is ONE of the EC Funding Program's main regional priorities, various orgs that Joe despises are going to be more attractive to them, but by and large, they fund various initiatives in different fields. Ergo, several Israeli welfare and health organizations which you know and respect are or have been funded from various EC initiatives for the region. (Yeah, funny how that little factoid never makes it on to NGO monitor!)

And finally- to the person who liked it when Lurker "ripped that commenter a new one" - Lurker (and friends) and I have been respectfully sparring here for years. We're not having a mudsling, rather a genuine discussion of issues that are important to us. And we will continue to do so.

Yom Tov to all.

confused said...

I've been reading this thread and I'm left feeling very confused. The Israeli HCJ ruled that the property unquestionably belongs to the Jews and the Arabs were living on it illegally. Center-left or far left Jews and Arabs depending on whose comments I read are protesting.

What I don't understand is what exactly are they protesting about?

Are they protesting that the HCJ returned the land to the original Jewish owners it was stolen from who were fighting to get it back for a long time? Is there a statute of limitations on property ownership? Is it arbitrary?

Are they protesting that the HCJ allows Jews to live in an Arab neighborhood in the capital of Israel? Is that illegal or immoral?

tafka pp said...

Hello Confused,

Here's a piece by the director of ACRI, who has become one of the main protagonists of the Sheikh Jarrah protests. Hope this sheds some light on the general principles behind the protest.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hagai-elad/former-knesset-speaker-av_b_441093.html

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

tafka pp:

And here's a rebuttal to the seemingly logical arguments in the huffington post...(and a similar one by Dan Izenberg in the JPost)

"Arabs who took over property which did not belong to them in Jerusalem, Hebron and many other places, are obviously not in the same position as Jews who lost property and reclaim it, or those who acquired property as a result of wars waged in self-defense. Failure to understand this fundamental difference mocks the distinction between aggressors and victims.

Denying Jews the right to live anywhere in the Land of Israel, simply because they are Jews, is as intolerable as denying non-Jews that right. Those who support such Arab claims attack not only Israeli law, but the rule of law in all other democratic countries. Perhaps that's why they call themselves "anarchists."

Lurker said...

tafka pp: The ISM, while jumping noisily on the local bandwagon (as they are wont to do) still have made up only a fraction of the protesters in recent weeks.

I don't propose to argue over which organizations provide which percentages of the protestors at these demonstrations. I was responding to your statement that "no organization" is organizing these protests. And that is clearly not true. The very fact that I was able to open up the ISM and Gush Shalom websites and immediately find numerous press releases urging their supporters to come to these demonstrations shows that these organizations are, in fact, organizing the protests -- contrary to your claim.

Furthermore, the very fact that the ISM -- a vicious, pro-terror group -- has deemed this a appropriate "bandwagon" to jump on speaks volumes about the nature of the "bandwagon" in question.

tafka pp: And of COURSE Gush Shalom were there in force...

If that is true (and I'm sure it is), then you are contradicting your assertion that the Sheikh Jarrah demonstrators are from the "center-left". Unless you want to claim now that Gush Shalom is "center-left" (which I guess would make Labor the extreme right), in which case there's not much left to discuss. Gush Shalom people attend the Bilin and Naalin demonstrations regularly; by admitting that they are also in Sheikh Jarrah "in force" contradicts your previous claim that "the Sheikh Jarrah protesters and the Bilin-Naalin anarchists are NOT cut from the same cloth". Iמ fact, not only are they cut from the same cloth, but many of them are the very same people (as the ISM also took pains to point out, when they wrote that many of the protestors at Sheikh Jarrah had come "in cars from the Bil'in and Ma'asara demonstrations".

tafka pp: [Gush Shalom is] on a high, feeling very empowered to not be solely consigned to the hard-left this time- especially being as they're attracting a lot of new, center-left attention and support...

Really? That's hardly the message Gush Shalom is conveying when it writes that their demonstrations in Sheikh Jarrah are "much like the demos in Bil'in, Nilin and other places", wouldn't you say?

Lurker said...

tafka pp: Now- regarding EU funding- first, your source who told you that ISM receive funding from the EC is completely incorrect. (ISM have an interesting funding policy, I can elaborate more if you're interested.) And when you say "Uri Avnery's Gush Shalom also receives funding from the EU" I'd check your facts there too.

As I recall, NGO Monitor believes that the ISM has received money from the EC. The fact is that it is very difficult to establish with certainty which organizations receive how much money from the EC, because most of the organizations won't tell us, and the EC refuses to disclose this information, in violation of European law. Because of this, NGO Monitor has filed suit against the EC, in an attempt to force them to disclose their funding information.

According to Gerald Steinberg of NGO Monitor, the EC has provided over €32 million since June 2005 to about 150 Israeli and Palestinian NGO's that have "demonized and delegitimized Israel".

For the time being, we can only know for certain about those NGO's who willingly disclose information about the funding they recieve from the EC and other European agencies. For example, according to this Jerusalem Post article, in 2009 alone, the Spanish Foreign Ministry allocated €80,000 to the radical leftist ICAHD (Israel Committee Against House Demolitions), an NGO run by Jeff Halper, who "rejects a two-state solution, and who justifies terrorism". In addition, in the same year, they allocated €80,000 to Breaking the Silence, €100,000 to the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, €70,000 to Rabbis for Human Rights.

tafka pp: BUT overall, time to break the myth that the EU exclusively funds hard lefty orgs...several Israeli welfare and health organizations which you know and respect are or have been funded from various EC initiatives for the region. (Yeah, funny how that little factoid never makes it on to NGO monitor!)

The fact that the EC provides funding to worthy organizations in no way excuses or justifies the fact that they also provide funding to radical political organizations that demonize Israel and (in many cases) support terrorist groups. Nor does it justify the fact that they are violating the law by refusing to provide full disclosuse of this funding. The fact the the EC does this is not only morally repugnant, but it also constitutes an outrageous act of interference in the internal affairs of Israel by foreign powers. NGO Monitor is to be applauded for bringing public attention to this phenomenon, and for demanding that the EC comply with its own laws demanding complete transparency in its financial affairs.

tafka pp: ...Lurker (and friends) and I have been respectfully sparring here for years. We're not having a mudsling, rather a genuine discussion of issues that are important to us. And we will continue to do so.

Hear, hear.

notconfusedanymore said...

I think the director of the ACRI calling Jews who live in the capital 'settlers' says it all.

I think you meant antagonist, not protagonist.

Thanks for clarifying that.

Lurker said...

notconfusedanymore: I think the director of the ACRI calling Jews who live in the capital 'settlers' says it all.

Indeed, and it speaks volumes about what ACRI has become as of late. Years ago, it was a serious, mainstream civil rights advocacy organization, that promoted equal rights for all (even settlers [*gasp*]). They certainly were like that during the time that the organization was run by Ruth Gavison. Today, however, they have become radicalized and marginalized, and work as an appendage of extremist groups like B'Tzelem. And that's quite unfortunate, because Israel really needs a genuine, serious civil rights advocacy group, and ACRI's abandonment of its original role in favor of joining up with the fringe left has left a vacuum in its wake.

tafka pp said...

Lurker- forgot to mention- ISM is an American organization, and as such wouldn't qualify for EU Funding. So NGO monitor are (yet again) barking up a very wrong tree.

And I would not applaud NGO monitor if my life depended upon it. I've never seen so much slander on one website- and the greater tragedy is the gazillions of people who take their lies as word.

Re the protesters- can we put this to sleep please?? I didn't say the protest was bereft of hard lefties. I basically told you/Joe- and I stand by this- that UNLIKE the weekly Biliin regulars (who may or may not have also arrived en masse to join the party) there are lots of "normal" people protesting in Sheikh Jarrah too, people who wouldn't have much to say to the hard-left Avnery, but would define themselves as center-left. Don't take any bold statements you read on websites as the whole truth- I told you, they've all got a lot to gain from claiming credit for this. Instead, speak to people who were there (or in my case, who were sick, but many of whose friends were there)

Good night.

Lurker said...

tafka pp: ISM is an American organization, and as such wouldn't qualify for EU Funding. So NGO monitor are (yet again) barking up a very wrong tree.

This is not entirely correct. ISM (and PSM, which is the exact same organization) have branch organizations based in the EU. For example, here is the website of ISM London, and here is ISM Scotland. These groups do qualify for EC funding. In addition, other organizations that are extremely closely affiliated with the ISM, such as ICAHD and PCHR -- which, together with ISM, are part of the umbrella organization Free Gaza -- also receive funding from the EC.

tafka pp: And I would not applaud NGO monitor if my life depended upon it.

How do you feel about the fact that the EC's NGO funding provides no transparency of finances or decision making, and no independent oversight -- all in blatant violation of the law? I can't imagine that you find this acceptable. NGO Monitor is the only organization challenging this in the courts. Do they deserve no credit for this?

If NGO Monitor is lying about which organizations receive EC funding, then the EC could easily put those lies to rest by simply disclosing whom they distribute funds to, and how much. But they have thus far refused to do so, even though the law requires them to. Why do you think that is, hmm?

tafka pp said...

How do you feel about the fact that the EC's NGO funding provides no transparency of finances or decision making, and no independent oversight -- all in blatant violation of the law? I can't imagine that you find this acceptable.

You're right, I don't- particularly as I've spent so much of my life filling out exhaustive narrative and financial reports for them!

Seriously though- Take it from me that EC funding logs (per allocation) can be gotten hold of. I've seen them, for goodness sakes! So they can't be that elusive! Again, NGO Monitor (much like the other orgs at the other extreme that we discussed earlier) is good at making loud, protesting noises... aaaand that's about it. But they also cause untold damage with the noise that they make. Smear campaigns against decent, hardworking NGOs (such as the disgusting one now being mounted against the NIF) are a direct result.

JoeSettler said...

Thank God for NGO Monitor.

JoeSettler said...

Center-Left MK Otniel Shneller (Kadima) is calling for an investigation of the 'New Israel Fund'.

Far-Left MK Nitzan Horowitz (Meretz) is defending the 'New Israel Fund'.

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