Tuesday, November 13, 2007

Liberal Hawks

Crossposted on JoeSettler
The views of this post don't necessarily represent those of the Muqata blog (though they really do) and its readers.


There is probably no more dangerous animal in the world than the Leftwing Hawk.

Yesterday I was invited to partake in a seminar of strategic and security experts who were discussing the current situation vis-à-vis Iran, and Hamas.

It was meant to be a purely security-based discussion, with no politics. But based on the backgrounds of the different speakers, one could guess what their positions would be in advance.

I found the position of the Liberal Hawk to be quite scary.

He provided a unique and logically built historical viewpoint for the development of the current situation, while completely ignoring inconvenient facts that would knock down his tower of cards.

I (and others) raised some very serious questions about things he said, which he sidestepped rather than answer directly.

His thesis is that there are two parallel and competing ideologies running through Arab society: Nationalism (Nasserism) and Islamic Fundamentalism.

Fatah (and its sub-groups) represents Nationalism, and Islamic Jihad and Hamas represents Islamic Fundamentalism.

The above is completely true, but not the complete story.

The premise for his discussion is that Islamic Fundamentalism is the more dangerous of the two and that peace can be made with Nationalists, and most acts of terror are actually caused by Islamic Fundamentalists.

The direct implications of his statements was that one group is religious, which he clearly sees as unthinking and dangerous, while the other group is “secular”, and can therefore be reasoned with.

Yet, when I asked him about the fact that both streams create terrorists, his roundabout answer was that the terrorists themselves were bad (implying not necessarily the organizations they came from). (translation: “He is a Fatah Apologist”).

He completely ignores that members of Fatah and Hamas armies have gone back and forth depending on who pays them. He completely ignores that Arab Nationalism is also Islamic based (how many Arab Christian Nationalistic terrorist groups are you aware of in the Middle East?). He completely ignores that while Hamas and Fatah may compete for control, it was specifically Arafat and Fatah who enabled Hamas to commit acts of terror against Israel.

Which is funny if you think about it.

Arafat and the PLO essentially (an openly) strengthened and enabled Hamas to act as their proxy when it was inconvenient for them to act directly, to the point where Hamas gained enough strength to eventually take over.

Furthermore, I decided to look up basic facts.

Is Fatah more moderate? Are they capable of making peace, as he firmly believes (given the right circumstances – meaning they have the guns, money, and power).

I decided that the best proof or disproof of that would be decided by whether or not Fatah committed acts of terror when they had power and were in control.

I found a number of charts.

During the same period of time since Arafat was let into Israel, Hamas killed 482 Jews in 73 major massacres, 162 Jews were killed by Islamic Jihad in 32 major massacres, while a mere 129 Jews were killed by Fatah in 23 massacres.

In numerous cases the different groups joined together for (i.e. Fatah and Hamas, or Fatah and Islamic Jihad) to commit their acts of terror.

In addition, Fatah were involved in some 1500 other terrorist attacks not deemed as major massacres.

So what this information does indicate is that Fatah, showed less success that the other groups in committing major terror attacks, they are clearly a full partner and player in the terror infrastructure – even when they are in full power.

Yet, here is this security expert, putting his eggs is Fatah’s corner, as “moderates”.

Yet the numbers don’t indicate moderation to me, just less success on the mega scale.

Another person at the meeting asked another important question.

This expert had said, that based on the Palestinian internal divisions between Nationalist and Fundamentalist ideologies, Oslo didn’t have a chance because the Fundamentalist division was ignored - but he supported it anyway.

He was then asked, if he knew in advance that it was doomed to fail and that terrorism would definitely result, as he claims he wrote back then, then why in the world did he support Oslo.

Now forget for the moment that he thinks we can make peace with Arab Nationalists that want an Arab-only Middle East. Forget for the moment that he ignores the core connection between Islam and Arab nationalism.

His answer was (word for word), “Oseh shalom bimromav, we have to try to make peace.”

Isn’t that wonderful! A (leftwing) strategic security expert admits that he was 100% positive that the “Oslo peace process” would only lead to increased terrorism and not to peace based on his incredibly deep understanding of Arab society, yet he supported it anyway, to give it a chance…

..and he continues to support it - because of “Peace”.

Wherever I am, my blog turns towards Eretz Yisrael

6 comments:

mevaseretzion said...

Tell him that while he is quoting pesuqim, he should remember this little gem:

Devarim Ch 7: "When God brings you to the land you are to inherit, he will uproot many nations from before you...and give them into your hands...do not make treaties with them..."
א כִּי יְבִיאֲךָ, יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, אֶל-הָאָרֶץ, אֲשֶׁר-אַתָּה בָא-שָׁמָּה לְרִשְׁתָּהּ; וְנָשַׁל גּוֹיִם-רַבִּים מִפָּנֶיךָ הַחִתִּי וְהַגִּרְגָּשִׁי וְהָאֱמֹרִי וְהַכְּנַעֲנִי וְהַפְּרִזִּי, וְהַחִוִּי וְהַיְבוּסִי--שִׁבְעָה גוֹיִם, רַבִּים וַעֲצוּמִים מִמֶּךָּ. ב וּנְתָנָם יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, לְפָנֶיךָ--וְהִכִּיתָם: הַחֲרֵם תַּחֲרִים אֹתָם, לֹא-תִכְרֹת לָהֶם בְּרִית וְלֹא תְחָנֵּם.

Numbers 33:55

"If you do not uproot the residents of the land from before you, those that you leave over will be thorns in your eyes and sides, and they will hate you, in the land you live in."
וְאִם-לֹא תוֹרִישׁוּ אֶת-יֹשְׁבֵי הָאָרֶץ, מִפְּנֵיכֶם--וְהָיָה אֲשֶׁר תּוֹתִירוּ מֵהֶם, לְשִׂכִּים בְּעֵינֵיכֶם וְלִצְנִינִם בְּצִדֵּיכֶם; וְצָרְרוּ אֶתְכֶם--עַל-הָאָרֶץ, אֲשֶׁר אַתֶּם יֹשְׁבִים בָּהּ.

David Linn said...

(though they really do)

classic

Bob Miller said...

Behind the scenes, these two bands of cutthroats keep trying to negotiate with each other. It seems they share one objective that overrides even their hatred for one another. And it's not peace with Israel.

Anonymous said...

another great post, joe settler

do you have any 'stats' on the number of attempted terrorist attacks since hamas came into power - seems to me every attempted one since has been by some version of fatah, whether the al aqsa martyrs brigade or something similar.

it would be very interesting to know what the figures are with a hamas govt in control - as if it is as it seems, and fatah are behind most of the recent failed terrorist attacks, makes even less sense why anyone would call them moderate - and would suggest that if anyone is better at 'stopping' terror it is, irony or ironies, a hamas govt...

JoeSettler said...

I found the following.

Between 2000-2006 there were 27,905 terrorist attacks against Jews in Israel. The stats do not differentiate by which group, and probably can't as many of the attacks included in this number most likely include stonings and drive-by shooting in which no group took any claim.

Another interesting point mentioned there is that of the nearly 7000 suspected terrorists that were detained in 2006, 39% came from Hamas, while the rest were divided between Fatah and PIJ.

While most of the suicide bomber attempts in 2006 coming from Jenin and Shchem, actually came from Fatah and PIJ, not Hamas.

JoeSettler said...

I have to find the link again, it was from an article last March, but quite interesting, since they took power until that article was written, they claim that Hamas did not directly launch any missiles at Israel - leaving it for other groups to freely do so from their territory in their stead.

The same exact trick Arafat used.

Of course, it is not as simple as that, as some of the groups are clearly Hamas proxies, and certain people claim (though I don't accept it), that the Fatah units in Gaza are actually Jihadist using the Fatah name, which Hamas takes advantage of.

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