Sunday, September 14, 2008

Olmert's Pogrom Against the Settlers

Shabbat Morning, 7:50 AM.

I was rudely awakened by my pager's buzzing, as an incoming message from the IDF spelled out that a terror attack just took place not from from us in the settlement of Yitzhar. A Palestinian terrorist infiltrated the Shalhevet Yam neighborhood of Yitzhar, set fire to a building, and stabbed a nine year old boy. The terrorist fled and was not apprehended. Security should be tightened in the surrounding areas.

Additional details came in ... the terrorist tried burning down a second home as well, and the 9 year old discovered the attack and started yelling for help. It was then the terrorist stabbed him 5 times in the back until the knife broke....he then threw him off the balcony of a caravan -- a 12 foot drop.

What we all found out on Saturday night was that the terror attack against the 9 year old was a minor detail -- the big story was the settler reprisal against the village that hosted the terrorist.

The IDF's inaction of not chasing after the terrorist infuriated the residents of Yitzhar -- this terror attack came on the heels of their fields routinely burnt down by Palestinians. Yes, the settlers reacted, took the law into their own hand and went into the village. Were their actions a beacon of democracy and good will towards their Palestinian neighbors? Nope. Should the IDF have done their job? Yes. Should the police have done their job? Yes.

No one did their job except for the Palestinian terrorist.

Yitzhar's community spokesman reported the following:
The stabbing attack and torching of an empty home in the settlement marked the "climax of the abuse perpetrated by Arab residents of the nearby village," Yitzhar Spokesman Yigal Amitai told Ynet. He also slammed the IDF conduct earlier in the day, referring to the army's failure to identify or capture the terrorist behind the attack.

"It's clear to everyone that this incident could have ended disastrously," Amitai said. "A whole family would have been butchered and burned. Yitzhar residents said that in recent months Arabs set seven fires in the settlement's wheat fields.


"To our regret, in all those incidents no real deterrent activity was conducted by the military and army," Amitai said.


The settlement spokesman also slammed the reactions issued by leftist Knesset members and groups during the Shabbat.


"They knew well that because of the sanctity of Shabbat we won't be able to respond in the media, and therefore took advantage of it," he said. Meanwhile, members of the Jewish National Front said that "the time has come for the Arabs to realize that Judea and Samaria residents aren't suckers…it would be better for the IDF and police to address Arabs who stab a nine-year-old Jewish boy, rather than target those who seek to defend themselves." (YNET)

The media pogrom against the settlers was swift and brutal, everyone conveniently refusing to condemn or acknowledge the severity of the terror attack that triggered yesterday's events.

MK Ahmed Tibi: referred to the settlers as "two-legged animals" following the riots. (ynet)

MK Zahava Gal-on: It's impossible to have a situation whereby the army is doing nothing while this is going on... the time has come to end the policy of inaction vis-à-vis the settlers." (ynet)

Peace Now Secretary General Yariv Oppenheim: "The settlers do not miss any opportunity to hurt Palestinians and endanger human life" (ynet)

But the best is reserved for Ehud Olmert to comment:

"There will be no pogroms against non-Jewish residents in the State of Israel -- a terror attack took place over the weekend in northern Samaria against a Yitzhar resident. A terrorist entered the community, a young boy was injured and there was an attempt to carry out a more severe attack. This is a serious and grave matter." (YNET)

It's much more serious and grave to Ehud Olmert that the Yitzhar residents should be upset at the torching of 2 buildings, upset at the IDF's inaction against terrorists, upset at the terror attack against a 9 year old -- and then they overturn a car and charge through the village which harbors terrorists....all that is much more grave and serious than the terrorist attack against a nine year old.

Yet let's take a step back. Can you imagine what the Arabs would do when there's an attack against them by a Jew? I'm sure they are the epitome of calm, and coldly calculated reasoned action. And if they would lose their cool, they would be soundly criticized by Ehud Olmert and the MKs of the left...?

Let's examine an actual case study from 2005.
Situation; Four people were killed and at least six others were wounded after army deserter Eden Natan Zada opened fire aboard a bus in the Arab town of Shfaram, in northern Israel.

Eyewitnesses said angry locals, or possibly bus passengers, managed to storm the bus following the attack and killed the shooter. Police reportedly had trouble retrieving the body, which was lying on the stairs of the bus, as a result of the angry Arab mob gathered at the scene.

Reaction against the terrorist: Prime Minister Ariel Sharon issued a special statement following the Shfaram shooting saying, “This is a vile act by a blood-thirsty Jewish terrorist who aimed to hurt innocent citizens.” “Terror by citizens against citizens is the most dangerous thing regarding Israel’s future and its democratic character,” the statement said

What happened to the blood thirsty Palestinian terrorist this past Shabbat that tried killed a 9 year old? Did anyone dare call him a vile, blood thirsty terrorist?

At the scene in Shfaram, a lynch mob disarmed the Jewish terrorist, and then rioted, taking the law into their own hands, and killed Eden Zada. In response to the possibility of charges being brought against those who took the law into their own hands MK Barakeh said, "We will take action to break any hand that is raised against us."

Balad chairman, MK Jamal Zahalka slammed the Haifa prosecution's decision to subpoena the Shfaram residents in the case: "This is an act of provocation. The police failed to find out who was assisting Zada and who sent him, and are blaming the victims. If they indict they will have riots on their hands"

Any comments from MK Tibi about the 2 legged animals in Shfaram?

Any comment from MK Zehava Gal-on the impossibility of a situation whereby the police is doing nothing while this is going on -- or has he time has come to end the policy of inaction vis-à-vis the Arabs?"

I don't recall Peace Now Secretary General Yariv Oppenheim saying the "The arabs do not miss any opportunity to hurt Jews and endanger human life"

And of course, Olmert was uncharacteristically silent then too.

It seems that its settler season again.

I was reminded of the painful artistic expression on road 60 near Beit-El, 10 years ago after many terror attacks on the roads.
















A congregation of benevolent, smart and wise
gave guns to the foxes.
And as the days grew, the era of peace they hallucinated
turned [us] to a flock of ducks.






Wherever I am, my blog turns towards Eretz Yisrael טובה הארץ מאד מאד

47 comments:

Rahel said...

I think "Chelma'im" means "Chelmites" -- the proverbially stupid residents of Chelm.

RivkA with a capital A said...

Important post at this time.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Rahel - you are correct - I read it dylexicyally.

Unfortunately, the residents of Chelm tell jokes about Israel.

Anonymous said...

Jameel,

Firstly and most importantly, how is the boy doing now? Do we know his Hebrew name or when he will be coming home?

Secondly, perhaps you could clarify something for me on the chronology which isn't clear:

* Shabbat morning the terrorist carries out his attack.

* Terrorist escapes.

* "The settlement spokesman also slammed the reactions issued by leftist Knesset members and groups during the Shabbat. "They knew well that because of the sanctity of Shabbat we won't be able to respond in the media, and therefore took advantage of it," "

Presumably this statement was made on Motzei Shabbat, so when did the reprisal against the local Arab town actually take place? On Shabbat itself?

If so, the spokesman's point about the 'leftists in the media' taking advantage of Shabbat to slur the settlers is either remarkably hypocritical, cynically self-serving or both.

It also seems to me (although I await your clarification) that the residents of Yizhar lost the moral high ground when they chose to respond in the way they did, in exactly the same way the residents of Shfaram did. (But at least in Shfaram when they ‘took the law into their own hands’ they could accurately claim that they attacked the terrorist responsible rather than just anyone who they came across.)

It is also unclear to me, on what basis you accuse PM Olmert of carrying out a Pogrom. You could argue he has been insensitive, incompetent, or a whole host of other things, but to claim that this is "Olmert's Pogrom Against the Settlers" is an insult to the thousands of Jews who truly suffered pogroms, who were hounded out of their homes, attacked, raped and murdered by blood-thirsty mobs. To employ such a phrase suggests a historical ignorance or insensitivity which I know from your writing is not the case. It suggests the same historical ignorance or deliberate insensitivity used by anti-Zionists when they use the term, or when they make odious comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany or Apartheid South Africa, or talk of the Gaza Ghetto or and the like.

I believe you know better than that.

Yellow Boy

Anonymous said...

Obviously the terrorist is an animal, should be apprehended and prosecuted to the furthest extent of the law. Perhaps his family house should be razed.
But why should the residents of Yitzhar be allowed to go into an Arab village, I presume armed, and antagonize its residents? There are proper channels for such things, and if they are broken, then there are legal remedies. Even if the entire Israeli government system is corrupt and ineffective, or worse, surely that does not justify a public rampage. Isn't that action a bit hard to defend, even for someone from the settler camp?
And giving an analogy beteween these settlers going into that village and the Arabs killing a deranged person who assaulted a bus, how is that analagous? Their action is closer to that of a private citizen who shot a bulldozer driver who was on a rampage. I don't think the left wing attacked that individual.
As you previous commenter pointed out, I wouldn't go throwing out terms like 'Pogrom" so quickly.
A leftist pig

bec said...

olmert certainly makes it clear that he does not follow in the tradition of the great jewish leaders. it's a very sad day when his inaction and action fails to surprise and instead has become so typical. he's a coward and a panderer and he makes a mockery of what should be a great nation. how he looks in the mirror is beyond me.

rockofgalilee said...

I analyzed the reasons of the left for only condemning Jews and not Arabs.

To the two commenters who thought pogrom was insensitive, I would disagree. When an Israeli leader ignores a terroristic act and condemns the people who tried to avenge the act, he is encouraging more terroristic behavior. In Israel the guy who sends a terrorist is considered to have blood on his hands. By encouraging more murderous act, Olmert is causing pogrom-like behavior.

The people in the neighboring village were not innocent. 1)This wasn't the first incident. 2) By protecting and hiding the terrorist they exhibit complicity in everything he did.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

YB: Presumably this statement was made on Motzei Shabbat, so when did the reprisal against the local Arab town actually take place? On Shabbat itself?

Yes, the reprisal took place on shabbat.

If so, the spokesman's point about the 'leftists in the media' taking advantage of Shabbat to slur the settlers is either remarkably hypocritical, cynically self-serving or both.

How so? Because the reprisal was on shabbat? I do not personally approve of the reprisal, but there are plenty of halachik sources which would have backed up their reasoning.

It also seems to me (although I await your clarification) that the residents of Yizhar lost the moral high ground when they chose to respond in the way they did, in exactly the same way the residents of Shfaram did.

As I mentioned above, there is definitely some loss of moral highground by Yitzhar residents taking the law into their own hands. That said, there are even more details emerging which make their behaviour understood. Not only did the IDF see the terrorist on his way to Yitzhar (and they did nothing), but they saw him running away as well, and did nothing! (The IDF's excuse is they thought he was coming to work ... and then leaving work ... a ridiculous assumption all around).

Additionally, in Shfaram, they killed a bound, neutralized person who was no longer a threat. In Yitzhar, their purpose was to scare the residents into stop attacking them.

Regarding Olmert; he used the word pogrom. In the text of my posting, I referred to the "media pogrom" being carried out by Olmet.

Two wrongs do not make a right, but I will not sit by as the Israel's prime minister calls the settler's reprisal a pogrom, trashes the settlers, and ignores the terror attack against a 9 year old.

Lurker said...

Here is what the Jerusalem Post had to say about Olmert's use of the word "pogrom" (in the context, btw, of an editorial that was harshly critical of the actions taken by residents of Yitzhar):

A small minority of settlers behaving badly does not a pogrom make. In telling the cabinet on Sunday that "There will be no pogroms against non-Jewish residents in the State of Israel", Prime Minister Ehud Olmert committed a grave injustice to Jewish history.

Yellow Boy -- why do you say nothing at all about Olmert's inappropriate use of the word "pogrom", but criticize Jameel when he responds by throwing the word back at Olmert?

Your one-sidedness dovetails with that of the media, which is focusing obsessively upon the settlers' retaliatory rampage, but is studiously ignoring the terror attack in Yitzhar.

Lurker said...

A leftist pig: ...I wouldn't go throwing out terms like 'Pogrom" so quickly.

As I asked Yellow Boy: Does that apply to Ehud Olmert, too? Or does it only apply to bloggers who are offended by Olmert's use of that term, and respond by sarcastically throwing it back in his face?

ProfK said...

A pogrom and a retaliation are not the same thing. One can argue rationally that a terrorists coming in a stabbing a young boy and burning the fields is a pogrom on the part of the terrorist--an action taken against a person or group based solely on their religious/national affiliation with no provocation given. What the settlers did is not a pogrom but a retaliation--an action taken after a severe provocation. Midah k'neged midah.

YMedad said...

I was in Chelm four years ago. They do not. They're all antisemites and are serious.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

YMedad: And I thought antisemites told jokes about Israel...

YMedad said...

Clarification: They do not tel jokes about Israel.

Addition: I was interviewed on
IBA's Rnglish radio news yesterday at 12:30 and stated that Olmert's use of the term "pogrom" was not inelligent. After all, there are people that claim that what he did in So. Lebanon two years ago is described by antizionists as a "pogrom". Does he like that terms?

Channah said...

You didn't answer anonymous's first question (and the one on my mind), how is the boy doing? Will he be OK?

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Hi Channah - sorry about that.

B'H -- the boy is doing VERY well! He is in surprisingly decent shape for what the terrorist did to him, and I understand he's home already.

Truly "chasdei shamayim"

Anonymous said...

O.K., I'll bite. Why did the residents of Itzhar do this on Shabbat? What is the Halachic justification for firing their guns in the air and whatever else they did, ON SHABBAT? Was someone chasing them? Were they on the heels of the perpetrator. How much can you twist halacha to justify such actions?
As for the whole Pogrom thing, you really need to reassess your view of Jewish history if you can use the word pogrom for any verbal assault that the PM used. Do you folks understand what a pogrom is?
leftist pig

YMedad said...

LP: Maybe they were going to war. That's halachically permitted.

Anonymous said...

Lurker:
I don't read E Olmert's blog. If I did, I might tell him not to throw around the term as well.
However, I do occasionally read this blog. And I'm here to tell you that those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it. If you burn other's books, yours will be burnt someday. If you label the opposition as "pogromists", you will eventually regret it. Vitriol has an unpleasant wat of coming back and biting you on the tussick.
alp

chardal said...

>O.K., I'll bite. Why did the residents of Itzhar do this on Shabbat? What is the Halachic justification for firing their guns in the air and whatever else they did, ON SHABBAT? Was someone chasing them? Were they on the heels of the perpetrator. How much can you twist halacha to justify such actions?

You are alowed (actually obligated) to respond to enemy provocation on shabbat. See Eruvin 45a which states that even if gentiles come to steal from a Jewish community, it should retaliate on Shabbat:

אמר רב יהודה אמר רב נכרים שצרו על עיירות ישראל אין יוצאין עליהם בכלי זיינן ואין מחללין עליהן את השבת תניא נמי הכי נכרים שצרו וכו' במה דברים אמורים כשבאו על עסקי ממון אבל באו על עסקי נפשות יוצאין עליהן בכלי זיינן ומחללין עליהן את השבת ובעיר הסמוכה לספר אפילו לא באו על עסקי נפשות אלא על עסקי תבן וקש יוצאין עליהן בכלי זיינן ומחללין עליהן את השבת

Lurker said...

A Leftist Pig: O.K., I'll bite. Why did the residents of Itzhar do this on Shabbat? What is the Halachic justification for firing their guns in the air and whatever else they did, ON SHABBAT? Was someone chasing them? Were they on the heels of the perpetrator. How much can you twist halacha to justify such actions?

Apart from the fact that you are completely wrong about the halakha regarding this issue (I was going to cite the source, but Chardal beat me to it), I would also note that your reasoning would prohibit hilul Shabbat by people conducting standard security patrols in dangerous areas (e.g., by driving an automobile). When army or security personnel conduct such patrols, there is generally nobody "chasing them", nor are they "on the heels of [a] perpetrator". Yet such patrols are permitted (required, in fact) by all major poskim, on the basis of pikuah nefesh. According to your reasoning, however, all these poskim are "twisting halakha", and these patrols ought to be prohibited. Is this what you actually believe?

Lurker said...

A Leftist Pig: As for the whole Pogrom thing, you really need to reassess your view of Jewish history if you can use the word pogrom for any verbal assault that the PM used. Do you folks understand what a pogrom is?

*sigh*

This really shouldn't be necessary, but I'll spell it out in black and white for you: Jameel does not think that Olmert's propaganda campaign is a "pogrom", nor did he imagine that any reasonably intelligent person would think that he was seriously comparing it to one. PM Olmert made use of the word "pogrom" in a most offensive and inappropriate way (as the Jerusalem Post editorial pointed out), and Jameel responded by mocking Olmert, facetiously using the very same word to refer to Olmert's own behavior.

Tell me, have you never heard of irony and sarcasm?

chardal said...

But what olmert did in Amona is ...

I guess we live in a country where pogroms are ok... as long as they are against Jews.

YMedad said...

As I have posted at my other blog

Anonymous said...

Lurker, I love the world weary sigh. It's so magnificently condescending. It's like clearly no one could see this issue differently.
The fact is, I am quite familiar with the halacha you sited. The problem is that these settlers were not responding to an imminent threat, they were acting in retaliation. And even if you do not think so, and you somehow believe that the Izhar residents were engaged in a military operation designed to curtail further attacks (which is quite a leap from my perspective), then what justification did they have for firing their guns? Or for the other activities in which they engaged. I need not go into the details of their activities on that fine Shabbat afternoon. If I did, I'm sure you would suggest they were on a peace walk. But still, if you review the halacha about such things, you know that the threat must be imminent for you to act aggressively. As for security patrols, obviously they must be permitted on Shabbat. But as you obviously know, most rebbeim prohibit you from any unnecessary chillul shabbat, even while patrolling. For instance, you shouldn't shave or carry a book for pleasure reading outside an eruv while on patrol on shabbat. So then how can you fire your weapon or push a villager or break a water tower etc etc while on an action? and that is assuming that this visit to the Arab village was halachically justified. You don't really have to respond. I know what you're going to say.

By the way, Jameel, in his innocent piece of which you speak, also referred to the media as executing a "pogrom against the settlers." Where is the line between irony and character assassination using a term which shouldn't be thrown around without sensitivity and a bit of historical context? Don't be such a Nazi. Irony intended.
ALP_

chardal said...

>The problem is that these settlers were not responding to an imminent threat, they were acting in retaliation.

The gemara is NOT talking about an imminent threat, but rather a potential future one. Which is why you attack even if they only came to steal items of little worth. The danger is in NOT responding to their aggression. The residents of Yitzhar responded to aggression which is something that the army and police SHOULD have done. They didn't, and frankly, I don't expect people to sit like sitting ducks when the government is more concerned with enemy lives than their own citizens.

Anonymous said...

Jameel, I'm very glad to hear the boy is doing OK.

"chardal said...

>The problem is that these settlers were not responding to an imminent threat, they were acting in retaliation.

The gemara is NOT talking about an imminent threat, but rather a potential future one. Which is why you attack even if they only came to steal items of little worth. The danger is in NOT responding to their aggression. The residents of Yitzhar responded to aggression which is something that the army and police SHOULD have done. They didn't, and frankly, I don't expect people to sit like sitting ducks when the government is more concerned with enemy lives than their own citizens."


Even if we were to accept your interpretation, which I do not, could you please explain why such pre-emptive acts need to take place on Shabbat as opposed to afterwards?

Also, if you can refer me to the discussion that took place in Yitzhar last Shabbat, where a proper, halachik decision was made by an appropriate and competent Rabbinic authority who appointed representatives on behalf of all of Am Yisrael to go into the neighbouring village and laid out the relevant limits to their actions that would also be great. We wouldn't want to think that this chilul Shabbat was carried out in the heat of the moment by a self-appointed group of thugs now, would we?

Anyway, if we're being ironic and sarcastic, rather than historically ignorant or wilfully offensive, why are we stopping at a "Olmert's Pogrom Against the Settlers"? It could be a Holocaust (Oh no, that was already done during the disengagement and by Matan Vilnai), um, so what about a churban against the settlers, or an inquisition? Yes that would be good, "Olmert's Inquisition against the settlers". After all no one expects the Spanish Inquisition...

Yellow Boy

Lurker said...

Yellow Boy: Anyway, if we're being ironic and sarcastic, rather than historically ignorant or wilfully offensive, why are we stopping at a "Olmert's Pogrom Against the Settlers"? It could be a Holocaust...

Because Olmert referred the action by the Yitzhar residents as a "pogrom", not a "holocaust".

That quote is in Jameel's post, in bold type.

Olmert used the word "pogrom" about the settlers, so Jameel used the same word about Olmert. If Jameel had used the word "holocaust", there would have been no implicit reference to Olmert's "pogrom" statement, which was the whole point. It would have just been a stupid non-sequitur.

Do you really not understand this?

chardal said...

>Even if we were to accept your interpretation, which I do not,

And what is your interpertation of the gemara? even if you have an alternate one, this gemeara still qualifies as halachic justification since the simple understanding seems to be that people are allowed to respond with violence on shabbat without there being an immenant threat of life or death.

>could you please explain why such pre-emptive acts need to take place on Shabbat as opposed to afterwards?

Because immediate responses are a more effective deterent than ones carried out after a long period of time. It's basic human psychology.

Of course since in our "new middle east" deterents are no longer important and we can live in a fantasy world where the Arabs want to live with us in peace, I can understand why leftists have a hard time understanding basic concepts regarding human nature.

>Also, if you can refer me to the discussion that took place in Yitzhar last Shabbat, where a proper, halachik decision was made by an appropriate and competent Rabbinic authority who appointed representatives on behalf of all of Am Yisrael

Now you are asking about halachic authority and not about halachic justification. Two seperate questions. Frankly, since the Israeli government seems to have made a decision to stop protecting the lives of these people, I think its legitimate for them to pasken for themselves the best way to protect their lives and their families' lives.

Anonymous said...

You just don't get it.
I'm sure this terrorist came from this village, but that doesn't make this Arab town any more responsible for his actions than an Israeli yishuv is if a resident commits a murder or an act of terrorism.
So this action by these settlers is not a military action against a viable target. Or if it is, by your interpretation, then at least it would require a carefully considered action. If you were to determine what an army can or can't do on shabbat, or for that matter whether you can carry in an eruv, you would consult a rav. I really don't think the people in Itzhar did that. So what exactly was their "action"? On shabbat, I might add.
If you are invoking the halacha of Rodef, for example, the law is carefully debated, and parameters are set up. Was that done here? And wouldn't you say that engaging an Arab town with gunfire was certainly a provocation that might have led to further violence? On shabbat? That would have just led to more chilul shabbat. Your case for the justification of this act is so weak that without your anger and your obvious blinders that you wear to justify whatever is done by settlers, you would definitely notice that this was ill considered.
ALP

chardal said...

>I'm sure this terrorist came from this village, but that doesn't make this Arab town any more responsible for his actions than an Israeli yishuv is if a resident commits a murder or an act of terrorism.

Of course it does. Arab villages routinly give terrorists the cover they need to operate successfully. Frankly, without the support of village populations, terror attacks against Jews would reduce dramatically. Such actions send a clear message to the town's population that there is a price for aiding and supporting terror.

As I said, the gemara is pretty clear on this and considering that the official authorities are doing nothing, I think their act was completely understandable.

Anonymous said...

We are all creatures of our environment, and I'm sure the remark you just wrote makes perfect sense to you. But "Arab villages routinely give terrorists...cover." Are you an expert of some sort in the tactics and sociology of West Bank Arab villages? What degree do you have in the military strategy of the Arab-Israeli conflict? Have you ever served as a Zahal soldier in a West Bank village? Do you know anything about these people? And do you know who in this town was involved? Are you suggesting that ALL the villagers were responsible in some way?
I'm sure that to people who agree with your line of thinking, that makes sense, but to me, that is pretty foolish stuff.
"The gemara is pretty clear on this." That's funny. Because this village may have had only ten people in it who knew anything about this. So the gemara advocates "clearly" roughing up villagers in the street? Would you harrass the entire village for ten people? (oh, I'm sorry, I forgot that I don't understand irony) I know we all use statistics and facts to our own advantage, but if you believe that the gemara is clear on this, you need to take a step back and think a tad. What if an innocent villager had been killed? Is the Gemara clear on that? How does the gemara rule about attacking those who may have had nothing to do with this attack? Would the amoraim suggest that more proof would be needed before being machalel shabbat by staging an assault? Human life is valued at a premium in the Talmud. I guess I need to go back to the text and find your sources for intimidating people WHO AREN'T DIRECT COMBATANTS.
Again my favorite aspect is that they did this on Shabbat. Was there some need for swift action, according to the gemara? Or did anger perhaps play a role?
I guess the point is that one believes what one wants to....
And ancient texts can always be wielded to prove one's point-- almost any point-- if one is so inclined...
ALP

Anonymous said...

We are all creatures of our environment, and I'm sure the remark you just wrote makes perfect sense to you. But "Arab villages routinely give terrorists...cover." Are you an expert of some sort in the tactics and sociology of West Bank Arab villages? What degree do you have in the military strategy of the Arab-Israeli conflict? Have you ever served as a Zahal soldier in a West Bank village? Do you know anything about these people? And do you know who in this town was involved? Are you suggesting that ALL the villagers were responsible in some way?
I'm sure that to people who agree with your line of thinking, that makes sense, but to me, that is pretty foolish stuff.
"The gemara is pretty clear on this." That's funny. Because this village may have had only ten people in it who knew anything about this. So the gemara advocates "clearly" roughing up villagers in the street? Would you harrass the entire village for ten people? (oh, I'm sorry, I forgot that I don't understand irony) I know we all use statistics and facts to our own advantage, but if you believe that the gemara is clear on this, you need to take a step back and think a tad. What if an innocent villager had been killed? Is the Gemara clear on that? How does the gemara rule about attacking those who may have had nothing to do with this attack? Would the amoraim suggest that more proof would be needed before being machalel shabbat by staging an assault? Human life is valued at a premium in the Talmud. I guess I need to go back to the text and find your sources for intimidating people WHO AREN'T DIRECT COMBATANTS.
Again my favorite aspect is that they did this on Shabbat. Was there some need for swift action, according to the gemara? Or did anger perhaps play a role?
I guess the point is that one believes what one wants to....
And ancient texts can always be wielded to prove one's point-- almost any point-- if one is so inclined...
ALP

BBJ said...

Thank God the child who was attacked is doing well.

chardal said...

>I guess I need to go back to the text and find your sources for intimidating people WHO AREN'T DIRECT COMBATANTS.

Good luck finding that. there are many lefties in the religious world who would be happy regarding such a find. To quote R' Bleich:

"Not only does one search in vain for a ruling prohibiting military activity likely to result in the death of civilians, but, to this writer's knowledge, there exists no discussion in classical rabbinic sources that takes cognizance of the likelihood of causing civilian casualties in the course of hostilities legitimately undertaken as posing a halakhic or moral problem."

Perhaps a good prototype for this action can be seen in the actions of Shimon and Levi in Shchem (see my post about it here: http://chardal.blogspot.com/2005/12/shimon-and-levi.html)

I will not respond in length to your little arab sociology lesson. suffice it to say that poll after poll of the Arab population of the west bank has shown overwhelming support for terrorist against against Jews.

lastly, I think that I have provided enough halachic support for this action (and for its execusion on Shabbat). Please show me sources which refute my understanding of the gemara, otherwise, please stop re-asserting something that is only obvious to yourself.

Anonymous said...

I guess the main point where we will always differ if the whole "legitimately undertaken" thing. You know, the part where the settlers who went into the village decide what action is justified and where to shoot and cause property damage on shabbat in order to bring about the predetermined "military" goal. That would be, um, well, that would be, oh yes, to prevent further attacks by shooting up the town like in a Western movie.
Please do not confuse polling data with reality (as Jameel points out in today's post). The fact that you might feel that all Palestinians are a certain way and perhaps should be ejected from the country doesn't mean that you actively support that goal (you do't, do you?, and no one should punish you for your point of view. Or if a person in the U.S. is anti illegal immigrants, it doesn't mean he should be prosecuted as a vigilante for his views.
It would surprise me if that average Paestinian WASN'T pro terrorist. That doesn't mean that they are a terrorist, or that they support terrorism in any active way. So you probably shouldn't punish them based on polling data.
Your halachic paskining problem isn't in the gemara, it's in your definition of what rebbeim would consider a legitimate undertaking. Get it?
ALP

Anonymous said...

Chardal, I went back to read what you wrote earlier, and now I understand. The settlers were responding , not to an imminent threat, but to a "potential future one." So by that logic, we should attack them again today. After all, they are always a threat, since they all support terrorists. Let's attack them on Yom Kippur; they'll never expect it then, and we'll have the element of surprise.
How does the gemara you cited in Eruvin suggest a potential future threat? It seems pretty clear that in the situation discussed, nonJews came into the Jewish area. It doesn't sound pre emptive at all.
ALP

Anonymous said...

I want to apologize for my comments. It's obvious that someone such as myself, a modern orthodox relatively liberal (no, I wouldn't consider myself left wing, more middle of the road) person who does not live in the settlements but is not opposed to them either,should not be commenting on this blog.
You see, I just don't think of every Arab on the entire west bank as my enemy. Therefore, I find a raid on an arab village by a group of settlers not authorized by the Israeli government unjustified, even if one member of the village recently attacked a child.
On the other hand, most of the commenters obviously feel the attack by the settlers was justified, because the villagers, by not handing over the attacker, are an imminent threat and are worthy of hostile action.
I guess this is where we will part ways.
Goodbye Muqata. Go in peace. Oh, or not.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

ALP: On the other hand, most of the commenters obviously feel the attack by the settlers was justified, because the villagers, by not handing over the attacker, are an imminent threat and are worthy of hostile action.
I guess this is where we will part ways.
Goodbye Muqata. Go in peace. Oh, or not


I dont know whether the majority of the commenters or views feel that the retaliation was justified.

To tell you the honest truth (as I wrote above), I did not condone the attack, and I feel very uneasy about it.

Do I think it was the right thing to do? No. Would I have done that? Probably not. Can I understand them? Yes. Can their be halachik POVs for their actions? Perhaps.

While Ive been rather quiet over this issue (past my original posting), I would like to say your comments are important.

(Though I still stand by my assertion that calling this post "Olmert's Pogrom against the Settlers" was a spin on his calling the actions of the settler's, "a pogrom")

I for one, would appreciate if you continued posting comments.

Without bouncing around opinions from liberal to conservative there's no way to hone's one internal compass.

Thanks.

Shabbat Shalom.

Jameel.

YMedad said...

To Anon.:

I join with Jameel and can tell you that in June 1989, when attacked by half the village of Qarawat Bani-Zeid who were intent in stoning 11 Jews to death for doing nothing but walking nearby their village in the wadi below I could not bring myself to shoot to kill but only to keep them at bay until we could make our way to safety (others details will be in my forthcoming Autobiography, Vol. I).

Nevertheless, your words caused me unease, when you write: "[I am a] person who does not live in the settlements but is not opposed to them either...I just don't think of every Arab on the entire west bank as my enemy. Therefore, I find a raid on an arab village by a group of settlers not authorized by the Israeli government unjustified, even if one member of the village recently attacked a child."

You don't have to be a resident of a Jewish community in Judea/Samaria to know that something is wrong and also immoral in the Arab attitude. You don't read the media, books, etc.? You don't recall the killings of Jews near Jerusalem, in Jerusalem, etc. and other locations, who don't live in communities but are attacked simply are Jewish?

At Yitzhar, it's an easier case. For the past 3-4 years there has been constant anti-Jewish activity, including attacks, stonings, burnings, uprooting, etc. (And I am not including the past 35 years of Arab terror). Do you think this act of vigiliantism just occured in a vacuumn? Don't you think that Yitzhar's security officers over the years haven't been updated by GSS/IDF about where the terrorists are coming from? That 10 years ago Harel Bin-Nun from Shiloh and Shlomo Liebman of Hevron were murdered there? Is it possible that Asira Al-Qabaliya is a place that supports terror directly or indirectly? That perhaps the army was seriously lax on that Shabbat and therefore the residents felt their lives, literally, were in danger because the army under Olmert would be restrained?

Were the reactions fully justified? No? Is there a moral danger in assuming the power which belongs to the police/army? Yes. But life is life and we all make our choices.

Now, let's see if the Arabs know how to make the best choices for themselves.

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