@ Elaz: I knew I should've made it clear that I was joking... (aimed at that guy who's been posting here lately who's obsessed with the bed-wetting kids in gaza)
Renegade thats NOT funny. UN studies show that 85% of malnourished gazan children wet the bed because of their fear of the zionist aggression, and so they cnat even go to sleepovers becuz they are too ashamed and do not have access to Dry-Nite disposable diapers (they disappear discreetly under pajamas, making sleepovers possible) because of the zionist blockade, severely affecting their social skills, while the coweringly israeli children in sderot have access to drynites and so can go to sleepovers and dance and play wihtout being ashamed of wetting themselves. FREE GAZA AND BRING THE WORLD DISPOSABLE DIAPERS!!!! www.drynites.com those are the 2 causes I decided to champion when I finished my poli-sci degree at University of Liberal Arts at Woodstock. yea, I don't know what I'm doing with my life....
Yes, we must have more self-pity and self-righteousness, because otherwise we'd have to admit that our military and political leaders are brainless goons who feel equal contempt toward religious Jews as they do religious Arabs.
The Yiddish expression Pishen shemen Zeis absolutely describes this cacophony -- it blends a little Golda ("They're not cute") with a pinch of St. Rabin ("We'll break their bones") and on and on, pouring in all the most vile Israeli masturbatory self-adulation, with the added innovation of skipping the bi-lingual rope while demonstrating to one and all that those piano lessons did not go for naught.
YY: Yes, we must have more self-pity and self-righteousness, because otherwise we'd have to admit that our military and political leaders are brainless goons who feel equal contempt toward religious Jews as they do religious Arabs.
Even more sad and pathetic is your own twisted pity for those poor "religious Arabs", with their knives and their "humanitarian" flotillas.
YY: I give it 3 pukes.
Funny, I was just about to say the same thing about you.
Modeh B'Miktsas: Many, many poskim do not consider that a heter.
Mm-hmm. And others do.
And this is why the Muqata utilizes the latest in bleeding-edge, innovative Web 2.0 technology to allow each and every member of its diverse readership to decide for his or herself what psak to follow: For your convenience and protection, you will notice that the video does not play unless you yourself choose to actually click the play button.
Menashe: Think about it for a moment. How different is a video of a woman singing from a live performance of the same?
I'd say about the same as the difference between a hamburger and a photo of a hamburger.
Menashe: I know of no poskim that make this distinction. If you would be so kind, please list them here.
(1) To start with, many poskim, including R. Hai Gaon and Rabbenu Hananel, hold that the entire issur of kol isha only applies while you are saying kriyat shema.
(2) R. Eliezer Waldenberg (Teshuvot Tzitz Eliezer 5:2) and R. Menashe Klein (Mishne Halachos V:224) pasken that a radio broadcast (and kal v'homer a recording) does not violate kol isha.
This is by no means a complete list.
Menashe: Finally, you kind of ignored the other issue I mentioned.
R. Eliezer Melamed has written about recorded music not violating the prohibition of music during the three weeks. In fact, he went even further, saying (in the name of his father, R. Zalman Baruch Melamed) that listening to recordings of sad music (e.g., this video) is desirable during the three weeks.
And once again, I reiterate: If anyone has a problem with watching/listening to the video for any reason, he or she does not have to click the play button.
1) Except that the difference between music and food is that to consume music you need only hear (and perhaps see it.) Mission clearly accomplished here.
Voluntarily exposing yourself to erva at times other than krias shema seems like a positive thing for you to do? I would love to see that tidbit inside because I have a hard time trusting such a psak actually exists.
2) It's disingenuous at the very least to apply the heter of a small minority of poskim (again I am taking your word that these actually exist) for radio to a video. IF there is such a heter, it must be because these poskim believe that the voice of a woman must be heard along with her image for any violation of tznius. That is clearly not being accomplished with a video. If you are aware of a different raya for these heterim, please be so kind as to provide it.
3) Is this sad music? I'll have to take your word for that again. On a side note I give Rabbi Melamed credit for standing up to the leftists in eretz yisroel.
Assuming you are correct that there is a shita that matirs listening to sad music, that is a daas yochid and the rabim who do not and should not rely on that - should not be michshol by seeing this video embedded on a frum site.
Menashe: Voluntarily exposing yourself to erva at times other than krias shema seems like a positive thing for you to do?
I addressed the parameters of a specific halakhic prohibition, not what "seems like a positive thing for you to do". Within the context of the opinions of R. Hai Gaon and Rabbeinu Hananel, to actually address the (non-halakhic) question of whether and when it is a "positive thing" to listen to a woman sing would require a proper understanding of what the gemara in Berakhot 24a means by the term "erva" -- something that you don't seem to have. (And no, I don't intend to teach it to you here.)
Menashe: I would love to see that tidbit inside because I have a hard time trusting such a psak actually exists.
Wow. Why do you have to "trust" me? I already identified the sources for you; why don't you just look them up? But since you seem to be unwilling or unable to do so, I will spoon-feed some of them to you:
* R. Hai Gaon: Otzar HaGeonim, Berakhot sec. 102 p. 30; also quoted in Mordekhai, Berakhot sec. 80.
* Rabbeinu Hananel: Otzar HaGeonim, Berakhot, Perush R. Hananel 24a, p. 24, also quoted in Rabiah, Berakhot sec. 76.
* The Rif holds that kol isha is muttar all the time, even during kriyat shema. See Rashba, Berakhot 25, quoting Rabad.
* The Divrei Heifetz, quoted by the Sde Hemed (Ma'arekhet Kuf, rule 42) holds that kol isha only applies to a woman singing a love song.
Is that enough, or do you also need me to scan them in for you, too?
You should learn how to open the sources for yourself. And if you can't, you should refrain from pontificating to others and advertising your ignorance in such an arrogant way.
Menashe: It's disingenuous at the very least to apply the heter of a small minority of poskim (again I am taking your word that these actually exist) for radio to a video.
(1) Please, don't take my word for it; look it up yourself.
(2) R. Yosef Eliyahu Henkin (quoted by his grandson, R. Yehudah Henkin, Teshuvot Bnei Banim 2:211 and 3:127) says that watching a woman sing on television may be permissable on the basis of the heter given by the Tzitz Eliezer.
I suppose you consider R. Henkin to be "disingenuous", too. Perhaps you should write him a letter telling him so.
Menashe: IF there is such a heter...
It's amazing the way you continue trying to cast doubt on what poskim wrote clearly in black and white, and is right there for you and everyone else to see. Who was the one you called "disingenuous"? To quote Alan Dershowitz: "I can put up with arrogance, and I can put up with ignorance. But the arrogance of ignorance is intolerable."
Menashe: ...it must be because these poskim believe that the voice of a woman must be heard along with her image for any violation of tznius.
Really? "It must be"? And this coming from someone who hasn't even troubled himself enough to actually read what those poskim wrote.
That is, indeed, one possible basis for the prohibition of kol isha, but certainly not the only one. In particular, R. Getsel Ellenson suggests that the basis for the issur may be Haza"l's concern that a man may come to do something prohibited with the woman as a result of hearing her. If this is indeed the basis, then there would be no difference at all between an audio recording and a video recording.
Menashe: Assuming you are correct that there is a shita that matirs listening to sad music, that is a daas yochid and the rabim who do not and should not rely on that - should not be michshol by seeing this video embedded on a frum site.
FYI: Arutz 7, during the years that it broadcast on the airwaves, relied on this very heter, which R. Melamed paskened for them halakha l'ma'aseh. Maybe, after you write to R. Henkin to tell him how "disingenuous" he is, you can also write to R. Melamed and tell him that he is a "michshol" to the "rabim".
In conclusion: I would suggest educating yourself a bit about what the poskim have to say before before self-righteously calling others "disingenuous", and before presumptuously setting yourself up as a self-styled Halakha Police of the JBlogosphere.
Israel is "special". All other countries in the world are permitted to aggressively defend against ordinary threats, but Israel is only permitted to mount an aggressive defense against existential threats. And even then, the world would stop Israel if it is too successful in such defense.
And Menashe, I think you're an idiot. You sound like the kind of guy that while marching to the gas chamber will worry about the band playing music, and the woman singing, during the 3 weeks. The kind of person that has lost focus on the real, core principles of Judaism and instead prefers to focus on the less meaningful minutia.
But shkoiach, instead of discussing the real issue brought up by this post, we are instead discussing (yet again) the relatively arcane halachot of Kol Isha. Way to go!
All, I suggest we drop this issue now and concentrate on something else.
If Menashe is concerned about this video being kol isha and during the 3 weeks, then he's more than able to keep whatever chumrot he wants and press the stop button on the video.
He can even leave comments that he thinks its kol isha and the 3 weeks.
Everyone can then ignore his comments, watch the video for themselves, or accept his warning comment.
I'm not surprised that you're trying to shut down this comment thread. With posts like this, it's no wonder that the Muqata is rapidly losing most of its leftist flotilla-supporting readers who are machmir on kol isha and music during the three weeks.
Jameel: I suggest we drop this issue now and concentrate on something else.
Yes, let's talk about your blatant and reprehensible endorsements of book-burning and non-traditionally-shaped waffles.
I suspect I wasn't clear with what I meant. The okay was a response to the blog owner.
And in that vein, this is the last I will speak on the issue.
Lurker,
I concede my laziness. You are correct that I should have looked them up myself.
I thank you for quoting some interesting minority opinions regarding the matter. To my knowledge (is that enough of a caution for you?), these opinions are generally not accepted by the klal. Therefore, my personal opinion is that they shouldn't be relied upon in a public setting. That is also why I believe that Arutz Sheva was irresponsible to rely on a daas yochid. I realize anyone can switch off the radio or choose not to turn on the video. Nevertheless, I still feel it is inappropriate to rely on minority positions for public media.
24 comments:
Thank you! I 'shared' it on Facebook
Wow
Yup! Like the Poles handing over a Jew to the Germans.
Tell me something has changed in the world!
But the Jew must be punished for doing things others do that is understood and forgiven.
Only Israel...
So the Israeli children get to play on fancy pianos and meanwhile the poor gazan children can't go on sleepovers because they don't have diapers...
@ renegade: No one "gets" anything. You reap what you sow.
@ Elaz:
I knew I should've made it clear that I was joking...
(aimed at that guy who's been posting here lately who's obsessed with the bed-wetting kids in gaza)
Renegade, I got the joke, and found it hilarious.
Renegade thats NOT funny. UN studies show that 85% of malnourished gazan children wet the bed because of their fear of the zionist aggression, and so they cnat even go to sleepovers becuz they are too ashamed and do not have access to Dry-Nite disposable diapers (they disappear discreetly under pajamas, making sleepovers possible) because of the zionist blockade, severely affecting their social skills, while the coweringly israeli children in sderot have access to drynites and so can go to sleepovers and dance and play wihtout being ashamed of wetting themselves.
FREE GAZA AND BRING THE WORLD DISPOSABLE DIAPERS!!!! www.drynites.com
those are the 2 causes I decided to champion when I finished my poli-sci degree at University of Liberal Arts at Woodstock. yea, I don't know what I'm doing with my life....
Yes, we must have more self-pity and self-righteousness, because otherwise we'd have to admit that our military and political leaders are brainless goons who feel equal contempt toward religious Jews as they do religious Arabs.
The Yiddish expression Pishen shemen Zeis absolutely describes this cacophony -- it blends a little Golda ("They're not cute") with a pinch of St. Rabin ("We'll break their bones") and on and on, pouring in all the most vile Israeli masturbatory self-adulation, with the added innovation of skipping the bi-lingual rope while demonstrating to one and all that those piano lessons did not go for naught.
I give it 3 pukes.
YY: Yes, we must have more self-pity and self-righteousness, because otherwise we'd have to admit that our military and political leaders are brainless goons who feel equal contempt toward religious Jews as they do religious Arabs.
Even more sad and pathetic is your own twisted pity for those poor "religious Arabs", with their knives and their "humanitarian" flotillas.
YY: I give it 3 pukes.
Funny, I was just about to say the same thing about you.
1) Kol Isha
2) 3 Weeks
recorded
Many, many poskim do not consider that a heter.
Modeh B'Miktsas: Many, many poskim do not consider that a heter.
Mm-hmm. And others do.
And this is why the Muqata utilizes the latest in bleeding-edge, innovative Web 2.0 technology to allow each and every member of its diverse readership to decide for his or herself what psak to follow: For your convenience and protection, you will notice that the video does not play unless you yourself choose to actually click the play button.
Think about it for a moment. How different is a video of a woman singing from a live performance of the same?
I know of no poskim that make this distinction. If you would be so kind, please list them here.
Finally, you kind of ignored the other issue I mentioned.
Menashe: Think about it for a moment. How different is a video of a woman singing from a live performance of the same?
I'd say about the same as the difference between a hamburger and a photo of a hamburger.
Menashe: I know of no poskim that make this distinction. If you would be so kind, please list them here.
(1) To start with, many poskim, including R. Hai Gaon and Rabbenu Hananel, hold that the entire issur of kol isha only applies while you are saying kriyat shema.
(2) R. Eliezer Waldenberg (Teshuvot Tzitz Eliezer 5:2) and R. Menashe Klein (Mishne Halachos V:224) pasken that a radio broadcast (and kal v'homer a recording) does not violate kol isha.
This is by no means a complete list.
Menashe: Finally, you kind of ignored the other issue I mentioned.
R. Eliezer Melamed has written about recorded music not violating the prohibition of music during the three weeks. In fact, he went even further, saying (in the name of his father, R. Zalman Baruch Melamed) that listening to recordings of sad music (e.g., this video) is desirable during the three weeks.
And once again, I reiterate: If anyone has a problem with watching/listening to the video for any reason, he or she does not have to click the play button.
1) Except that the difference between music and food is that to consume music you need only hear (and perhaps see it.) Mission clearly accomplished here.
Voluntarily exposing yourself to erva at times other than krias shema seems like a positive thing for you to do? I would love to see that tidbit inside because I have a hard time trusting such a psak actually exists.
2) It's disingenuous at the very least to apply the heter of a small minority of poskim (again I am taking your word that these actually exist) for radio to a video. IF there is such a heter, it must be because these poskim believe that the voice of a woman must be heard along with her image for any violation of tznius. That is clearly not being accomplished with a video. If you are aware of a different raya for these heterim, please be so kind as to provide it.
3) Is this sad music? I'll have to take your word for that again. On a side note I give Rabbi Melamed credit for standing up to the leftists in eretz yisroel.
Assuming you are correct that there is a shita that matirs listening to sad music, that is a daas yochid and the rabim who do not and should not rely on that - should not be michshol by seeing this video embedded on a frum site.
Menashe: Mission clearly accomplished here.
Clearly. 'Shkoyach. You're the man.
Menashe: Voluntarily exposing yourself to erva at times other than krias shema seems like a positive thing for you to do?
I addressed the parameters of a specific halakhic prohibition, not what "seems like a positive thing for you to do". Within the context of the opinions of R. Hai Gaon and Rabbeinu Hananel, to actually address the (non-halakhic) question of whether and when it is a "positive thing" to listen to a woman sing would require a proper understanding of what the gemara in Berakhot 24a means by the term "erva" -- something that you don't seem to have. (And no, I don't intend to teach it to you here.)
Menashe: I would love to see that tidbit inside because I have a hard time trusting such a psak actually exists.
Wow. Why do you have to "trust" me? I already identified the sources for you; why don't you just look them up? But since you seem to be unwilling or unable to do so, I will spoon-feed some of them to you:
* R. Hai Gaon: Otzar HaGeonim, Berakhot sec. 102 p. 30; also quoted in Mordekhai, Berakhot sec. 80.
* Rabbeinu Hananel: Otzar HaGeonim, Berakhot, Perush R. Hananel 24a, p. 24, also quoted in Rabiah, Berakhot sec. 76.
* The Rif holds that kol isha is muttar all the time, even during kriyat shema. See Rashba, Berakhot 25, quoting Rabad.
* The Divrei Heifetz, quoted by the Sde Hemed (Ma'arekhet Kuf, rule 42) holds that kol isha only applies to a woman singing a love song.
Is that enough, or do you also need me to scan them in for you, too?
You should learn how to open the sources for yourself. And if you can't, you should refrain from pontificating to others and advertising your ignorance in such an arrogant way.
Menashe: It's disingenuous at the very least to apply the heter of a small minority of poskim (again I am taking your word that these actually exist) for radio to a video.
(1) Please, don't take my word for it; look it up yourself.
(2) R. Yosef Eliyahu Henkin (quoted by his grandson, R. Yehudah Henkin, Teshuvot Bnei Banim 2:211 and 3:127) says that watching a woman sing on television may be permissable on the basis of the heter given by the Tzitz Eliezer.
I suppose you consider R. Henkin to be "disingenuous", too. Perhaps you should write him a letter telling him so.
Menashe: IF there is such a heter...
It's amazing the way you continue trying to cast doubt on what poskim wrote clearly in black and white, and is right there for you and everyone else to see. Who was the one you called "disingenuous"? To quote Alan Dershowitz: "I can put up with arrogance, and I can put up with ignorance. But the arrogance of ignorance is intolerable."
Menashe: ...it must be because these poskim believe that the voice of a woman must be heard along with her image for any violation of tznius.
Really? "It must be"? And this coming from someone who hasn't even troubled himself enough to actually read what those poskim wrote.
That is, indeed, one possible basis for the prohibition of kol isha, but certainly not the only one. In particular, R. Getsel Ellenson suggests that the basis for the issur may be Haza"l's concern that a man may come to do something prohibited with the woman as a result of hearing her. If this is indeed the basis, then there would be no difference at all between an audio recording and a video recording.
Menashe: Assuming you are correct that there is a shita that matirs listening to sad music, that is a daas yochid and the rabim who do not and should not rely on that - should not be michshol by seeing this video embedded on a frum site.
FYI: Arutz 7, during the years that it broadcast on the airwaves, relied on this very heter, which R. Melamed paskened for them halakha l'ma'aseh. Maybe, after you write to R. Henkin to tell him how "disingenuous" he is, you can also write to R. Melamed and tell him that he is a "michshol" to the "rabim".
In conclusion: I would suggest educating yourself a bit about what the poskim have to say before before self-righteously calling others "disingenuous", and before presumptuously setting yourself up as a self-styled Halakha Police of the JBlogosphere.
Israel is "special". All other countries in the world are permitted to aggressively defend against ordinary threats, but Israel is only permitted to mount an aggressive defense against existential threats. And even then, the world would stop Israel if it is too successful in such defense.
And Menashe, I think you're an idiot. You sound like the kind of guy that while marching to the gas chamber will worry about the band playing music, and the woman singing, during the 3 weeks. The kind of person that has lost focus on the real, core principles of Judaism and instead prefers to focus on the less meaningful minutia.
But shkoiach, instead of discussing the real issue brought up by this post, we are instead discussing (yet again) the relatively arcane halachot of Kol Isha. Way to go!
All, I suggest we drop this issue now and concentrate on something else.
If Menashe is concerned about this video being kol isha and during the 3 weeks, then he's more than able to keep whatever chumrot he wants and press the stop button on the video.
He can even leave comments that he thinks its kol isha and the 3 weeks.
Everyone can then ignore his comments, watch the video for themselves, or accept his warning comment.
Let's move on...
Jameel: Let's move on...
I'm not surprised that you're trying to shut down this comment thread. With posts like this, it's no wonder that the Muqata is rapidly losing most of its leftist flotilla-supporting readers who are machmir on kol isha and music during the three weeks.
Jameel: I suggest we drop this issue now and concentrate on something else.
Yes, let's talk about your blatant and reprehensible endorsements of book-burning and non-traditionally-shaped waffles.
I suspect I wasn't clear with what I meant. The okay was a response to the blog owner.
And in that vein, this is the last I will speak on the issue.
Lurker,
I concede my laziness. You are correct that I should have looked them up myself.
I thank you for quoting some interesting minority opinions regarding the matter. To my knowledge (is that enough of a caution for you?), these opinions are generally not accepted by the klal. Therefore, my personal opinion is that they shouldn't be relied upon in a public setting. That is also why I believe that Arutz Sheva was irresponsible to rely on a daas yochid. I realize anyone can switch off the radio or choose not to turn on the video. Nevertheless, I still feel it is inappropriate to rely on minority positions for public media.
Menashe -- check it out.
And during shavua she'hal bo, no less...
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