Tuesday, October 17, 2006

Meretz MK Targets "Out-reach" (Judasim)

The winter session of the Knesset is now in session. MK Chaim Oron (Meretz) ascended the podium of Israel's parliament and proposed a new law:

Any person who attempts to influence a minor, to become more religiously observant of Judaism,(להחזיר בתשובה) will be subject to arrest and imprisonment for 6 months.

It's laughable to even note that his law obviously has no mention of someone who influences a minor to be less observant.

You just have to wonder where such self-hatred comes from...and worse, that he publicly attempts to foster more hate and divisiveness.

We just had a terrible war here this past summer -- and the country rallied together for it's survival. (News Source in Hebrew)

Outraged? Give MK Chaim Oron a piece of your mind.

HomePage: MK Chaim Oron
Telephone: 02-6408348
Telephone 2: 02-6408344
Fax: 02-6408904
Email: horon@knesset.gov.il


Wherever I am, my blog turns towards Eretz Yisrael

37 comments:

Lana said...

Does this law really stem from self-hatred or from hatred of religion? There's a difference. You can love yourself as a Jew but hate those who practice the religion.
The real tragedy is that Moron is actively destroying the little bit of unity we achieved after the crisis of the summer.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Lana: A major precipt of Judaisim is "Love your neighbor as yourself."

What does it mean to "love yourself as a Jew" -- if you target and imprison people who want to increase Jewish religious practice? What meaning is there to being "Jewish" if it's devoid of ALL religious experience?

"Hating those who practice the religion" is about as "un-Jewish" as anyone can get...

But yes, your conclusion is correct...

tafka PP said...

Erm, Jameel. Describing "Scoop" as a News Source is stretching things a little. It is essentially nothing more than a group blogging site for wannabe journalists.

Robbie said...

That's quite possibly the dumbest law I've heard of. And even though I don't particularly want to the frummies to take more away from the real world, is it really law-worthy?

Oy. Only here.

Lana said...

Jameel-
You wrote, 'What meaning is there to being "Jewish" if it's devoid of ALL religious experience?'

That is exactly the point of secular Zionism, the point upon which the state of Israel was founded- Judaism as a race, not as a religion.
Although I personally disagree with this idea, you can't ignore the fact that this is what the secular left believes. Therefore it is possible to be Jewish and not religious; in fact, to them, it is preferable.

Elster said...

For him to get up and propose a law like that is shocking in it's indictment of him as a hater of religious zionism. What would be more shocking - to see this law get passed.


Either way, it's amazing that the lawmakers can focus on such "important" issues as religious outreach while these lawmakers are investigated for such trivial matter as rape and mishandling of the war.

Go figure.

And is this the Lana of Storyteller's fame?

Anonymous said...

Is this so bad? I mean, do we want to do kiruv with little kids? The kiruv may cause major problems for them in terms of normal family development. Perhaps kiruv for them should wait till they are older.

Rav Shechter once told us a story, that a divorce ended up with the (nuts) mother being religious and the (sane) dad not religious, and he said the child should go with the dad: first you have to be normal, then you can be frum.

On the other hand, maybe you are right. I mean, these kids are bombarded constantly with anti religious sentiments and ideas, perhaps getting some pro-religious experiences by kiruv people is a good thing....

This is complicated, no?

orange&black said...

Does this mean all the elementary and high school rebbes will now go to jail?

After all, they are getting minors to be more religious.

Actually, I heard about this law before in Israel.

They had something similar back when the Romans were ruling the country.
But back then they skinned you alive. I guess 6 months is nothing compared to roasting on an open fire.

Lvnsm27 said...

I understand that he doesn't want people to persuade the young ones. But when a Jew teaches another Jew, they are trying to give them what they need to know so they will know how to nourish their neshamah when they are older.

DTC said...

It's obvious that the whole point of this proposed "law" is to be able to prosecute Dati/Chareidi parents as a pretext for other ideological grounds. After all, raising a "frum" child involves making said child more religious.

I could even see the Supreme Court upholding this law as a way of removing children from homes that "someone" considers "unsafe" for young impressionable children.

OTOH, it could just be that somehow Chaim Oron is simply Mel Gibson's lost twin brother.

Lana said...

"storyteller fame?" you flatter me

The back of the hill said...

Any person who... etc.

Anyone? Parents, teachers, the scholars among the relatives? Gemoro tutors? Anyone?

Foolishness!

Strictly interpreted, such an absurd law would send anyone who tutors the little potato-head for his bar-mitzva to the klink for half a year.

I can see it now... "So, Shmuly, how come you're staying in the US so long?" "Because I'm preparing for my Bar Mitzva, uncle Barney".

Okay then. I'm in favour of a totally secular state. But this is nuts. It bans Jewish education. And would also ban Jewish identity.

Lurker said...

mevaseretzion:

Yes, kiruv is complicated, but Oron's bill is very simple.

If a non-observant teenager were to attend Bnei Akiva activities, and then decide, based on what he/she experienced and learned, to become shomer Shabbat -- then Oron's proposed law would send the Bnei Akiva youth leaders to prison.

As the religious percentage of the Jewish population continues to rise, you can expect to see more and more panicked responses such as this one from the likes of Oron. Israel's elite is full of self-haters of this ilk, who have no compunctions about imposing despotic, anti-democratic measures as a way of stemming the free flow of ideas that they dislike.

Ari Kinsberg said...

i called the number you listed and the woman laughed at me.

Yaakov Menken said...

Jameel, thanks for the heads-up, as always. From my post, "Hypocrisy, Thy Name is Meretz:"

Back in 1989 or 1990, the Jerusalem Report ran a feature on a new program sponsored by the “Movement for Secular Humanistic Judaism,” called the “Irgun L’Chozrim L’she’ila,” or “the organization for returnees to questioning.” Then as now, the Jerusalem Report wasn’t known to be especially pro-religion, and the article practically fawned over this wonderful new group.

What the “Irgun” did was offer charedim free shelter and help them understand things like the bus system, so they could get jobs. For those of us who don’t look upon charedim as benighted simpletons, this should already raise a red flag. But here’s the more salient detail: the soon-to-be-ex-charedim interviewed were all fifteen or sixteen years old.

This was an organization not content to merely “influence” minors—it actively assisted them in running away from home. Meretz, far from condemning their efforts, actively collaborated with the Movement for Secular Humanistic Judaism at the time.

elchonon said...

oops been busy working all day and hadent had a chance to comment.

What all of you are forgeting is, that there are THOUSANDS of missionary's prying on everyone here in israel and they basically do whatever they want.

There was a article in haaretz about breslover chasidim teaching kids about judaism.. the article potrayed the chasidim as if they were pedophiles molesting the kids..

G-d almighty.. have you seen the secular israeli youth ? trust me they could not care less about "secular zionism"

In fact, reading yediot acharonot on monday I read a poll taken of new college students i think it was 50% are planing to go work in america.. 7% do drugs (and 30% probably wont admit it)

Just go walk to kikar tzion, rishon letzion, petach tikva etc...

Fern R said...

Israel sounds like it is going down the same misguided path that America has been going down for the past 40 years. The eradication of religion and American values and culture has not served America well.

elchonon--Did the article say why so many Israeli students want to work in the U.S.? I kind of don't understand that. In America working abroad is generally viewed (with a few exceptions) as hurting your career growth. Also, a lot of the Israelis working here seem to be working at jobs that are beneath their level of education, probably because their English, while good, isn't good enough. Do Israeli students realize that?

Ari Kinsberg said...

fern:

i don't think it is fair to say that religion in israel is being eradicated. the religious were never a majority in the new yishuv and if anything my impression is that the reglious are growing.

i'm also not sure if you can make an analogy between america and israel and the religious/secular divide is much sharper in the latter.

even if israelis are working beneath their education here (and many by the way are not), they still make more $ and have more opportunities for advancement than they would in israel (sorry jameel). what is funny is that look down on in israel as avodah shechorah they are willing to do here in america.

Ari Kinsberg said...

y. menken:

how many religious jews are actually enticed by the Movement for Secular Humanistic Judaism and other similar groups? are they really a threat?
and if they are, don't blame them, blame the communities that their "converts" come from. religion in israel, as in america, is a marketplace. individuals assisted by the Movement for Secular Humanistic Judaism et al probably had issues with religous life to begin with that were being responded to properly. they simply see secular life as a better alternative.

i feel the same way about missionaries in america who prey on uneducated jews. it is not that the missioanries are pulling jews away from judaism. these jews did not feel anything holding them there because the community was negligent.

i posted on hillel, which assists ex-haredis, at http://agmk.blogspot.com/2006/09/haredim-and-hillel.html

Ari Kinsberg said...

y. menken:

that should read "that were not being responded to properly"

and on missionaries in america, see http://agmk.blogspot.com/2006/07/jews-for-jesus-in-new-york-or-best.html

Rafi G said...

good analysis and comparison. But does Chaim Oron really care what the people who would contact him think? His constituents are worried about their children being returned to teshuva not the other way around...

Anonymous said...

Maybe Oron was abused as a child.

Maybe an evil looking person with a beard and a dark suit approached him in the street and...

...offered to help him put on t'fillin, or make a blessing over some kosher food(GASP!)

He probobly needed lots of counseling and is trying to help other avoid this type of trauma.

The Monsey Tzadik said...

I do not want to come out on the side of Meretz but I do think the keruv people should leave the children alone.

I they want to do keruv they should do it on the parents and then in turn the parents can send their children to Bnei-Akiva etc.

elchonon said...

As ari pointed out, they go to america because they make more money there.. percisely a symbol of why secular zionism is dead (religious too in my opinon)

It does not matter who the majority is!! the fact stays that the religious were here ever since the churban beit hamikdash..

Secular zionism without judaism is worthless.. "its our land" they say "we came home"

oh really ? you came home ? to what ? why's it their land ? but see to those of us who learn chumash and in this week's parshat hashavua reasd the first rashi of the torah..

Why did hashem start the torah with "bereishis ?!?!?!"

Only so we can show that zehu its our land!

If Mr oron *spit* would care to learen a bit of history, he would discover that the state of israel was founded on attacking the religious!!!

First the maskilim and hashomer hatzair thugs.. and then the traiters at hagana and the goyshe (jewish) agency.

You can get the goyshe federation to fund a interfaith meeting or a lecture to intermarried famillies on the chrisnuka syndrom...

But g-d forbid will they fund a chanuka party by chabad etc..

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Purple Parrot: OK, it's been verified as 100% authentic via MK Oron himself. I hope to have more on this shortly...

Anonymous said...

This is exactly what the law was in the USSR - you can practice your religion but you cannot teach it to anyone under the age of 18.

RR said...

Oh, for Pete's sake. There must be thousands of worthy causes our MKs could espouse, and this guy chooses to focus on THIS idiocy? That's our tax shekels at work, people. Be proud.

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