Thursday, February 02, 2006

Amona Revisited

My description of Amona's destruction yesterday was pretty awful, till I watched it on TV last night and realized it was alot worse. The videoclips are buzzing all over the internet and it should be clear to all what happened yesterday.

As if I needed more proof, the following quote from an emergency room doctor at Hadassah hospital summed it up:

רופא אחר, העובד בחדר המיון בהדסה עין כרם, סיפר: "אני עובד 20 שנה במיון ולא ראיתי דבר כזה בחיי. מחבלים משכם מוציאים עם פחות אלימות ממה שראיתי היום. ראיתי נערים בני 14 ו-15 חבולים קשה, זה נס שאף אחד מהאנשים שאני טיפלתי בהם לא נפצע באופן יותר רציני"


"I have worked for over 20 years in the emergency room, and have never seen anything like this in my life. Terrorists from Shechem are brought in here with less trauma than what I saw today. I saw teenagers, between 14-15 years old, brought in with serious trauma, and its a miracle none of the people I treated were hurt even worse."

This morning I gave a lift to a bunch of hitchhikers to Jerusalem, including some teenagers from my yishuv who were in Amona yesterday.

In fact, dozens and dozens of our teenagers were present in Amona. These teenagers come from the finest of Israel's families, some of whom even made the ideological decision to move to Israel, and build their homes in the Shomron. Their parents are doctors, nurses, university professors, businessmen, homemakers -- honest and hard working families whose commitment to the settlement of the land of Israel is equally matched by their commitment to help Am Yisrael. Be it helping the needy, the sick, the elderly, or the disabled -- volunteering in Magen David Adom as EMTs, going to reserve duty in the IDF, volunteering in the Auxiliary Police, you will find these people on Israel's front lines, 24 x 7, every day of the year.

And who are these teenagers? Are these the wild "hilltop youth" we routinely see maligned by the press?

I can tell you that one of my hitchhikers today is a quiet, modest, religious teenager. She was there yesterday not out of hatred of Olmert. Not because she hates Arabs. Not because she hates the police. I didn't detect any hatred in her voice whatsoever.

All she had was a deep connection, a real passion for Eretz Yisrael, a love for our reclaimed land -- and a desire to continue settling it. I can't imagine she was throwing rocks...but I can see her crying her eyes out, as the horses and soldiers and policemen brutally beat her friends who were trying to hold on to the land.

Her brother was hit over the head by a baton, kicked in the stomach by a horse. Our neighbor's daughter needed stitches on her head. She went on and on telling me how the protestors were beaten, taken to a large tent, and treated by MDA medics before transport to Israel's hospitals.

It was surrealistic to see the police, soldiers and protestors all lugging each other on stretchers to the triage point...while 10 seconds earlier they were on opposite sides of the fence.

Today's Yediot Acharanot daily newspaper's front page was an aerial view of the confrontation in Amona. The headlines screamed out "Maachaz Ha'Sin'a" -- "The Outpost of Hatred"

Ehud Olmert (via his advisors) jumped into the fray as well, saying that "The Radical Right Wing is the Jewish Hamas"

The problem from yesterday is that Israel's government and media are intentionally marginalizing the Right Wing; The Right Wing is the source of hatred (Yediot) and The Right is a Jewish Hamas (Olmert).

If the government and media think that Israel can afford another Altelena incident to further political agendas, they are gravely mistaken.

Israel cannot afford it and neither can the Jewish people.

Israel's government must first and foremost start acting responsibly towards its citizens. Alienation and targeting of its own citizens instead of meaningful dialogue will be Olmert's undoing. All attempts to heavy-hand the settlers will bring about more tension and strife...and if Olmert can't realize this, he's not fit to be prime minister.

So where do we go from here? What are the answers? What does the rightwing need to do on their part?

In the past 24 hours, I've heard everything you an imagine. And worse.

What do you think?


Wherever I am, my blog turns towards Eretz Yisrael

56 comments:

Joe Settler said...

What's the political alternative on the immediate horizon?

Tovya @ Zion Report said...

well, the right certainly needs to stop fighting over the scraps of cabinet positions and everything else and start focusing on what's important. it's really sad that the left and center can seem to unite to a high degree, yet the right can't.

Anonymous said...

How about ALL you bloggers forming a NEW political party? Perhaps now is the time to seriously consider such an option. Otherwise, where do you go from here?

Anonymous with hope for the future.

Tehilimzugger said...

The alternative is for all religious Jews to accept, once and for all, that we are in the same camp with haredi Jews, and withdraw into our separate, protected communities. Instead of running to the Knesset, we should stop voting altogether. Do not use their courts, and, wherever possible, do not use their money. Try to get an alternative citizenship.

We'll never defeat them in frontal confrontations -- the Nazi soldiers who crushed our children's bones in Amona are all there is out there, not fellow Jews, but enemies who hate us as much as they hate the Arabs. I would seek out an arrangement with Hammas before I ever try communicating with the Zionists ever again.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Tehillimzuger:

1. We don't gain anything by invoking voracious invective against the police.

2. Is pan-Jewish unity now only possible through the religious shtetlism? I would hope not.

3. Sorry, I would dialogue anyday with an Israeli Leftist before talking to Hamas.

Elster said...

For starters, let's stop all talk of "they" and "them". Aren't we all one people, whether we are right, left, chareidi or secular? By dividing everyone into groups, all we do is widen the rift.

Tehilimzugger said...

We are DECIDEDLY NOT one people. In my opinion it is mutar to ask a secular Israeli to turn on the lights on Shabbos and Yom Tov. And assur to drink wine that he touched. It's assur the marry their children and assur to eat their vegetables without taking out a maaser.

Yonah said...

Olmert wants to win and win big. He and his minions actually made a strategy decision to do this as a means to winning votes. Doesn't that speak volumes about the attitude here? The idea that publicly beating settlers will be viewed as positive - as protecting the governments interests and protecting the "good" citizens from these crazy, backwards people.

There is no solution at all, other than for the haredi leaders like R. Eliashuv to finally tell their people that they MUST begin deep and affectionate dialogue - first with the srugy wearers, and then with everyone else. Only our own unity can save our people - this is not a new concept, it is mandated by the Torah as the only way to remain strong.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Yonah: So when are you talking to R' Elyashiv? From your keyboard to his ears.

TehillimZuger: It may be your opinion that it's mutar to ask a secular Israeli to turn on the lights on Shabbos and Yom Tov, but I doubt you'll find many rabbanim that agree with you. Personally, it sounds like "Lifnei Iver" at best and Sinat Chinam at worst.

Masmida said...

I don't know how to reply to this it all seems so schizo. We know we're one people and yet we fight so bitterly.

...I think Yonah is right if we can't get along among religous people, we expect the secular to understand and respect us.

Tehillimzugger-
Yisrael, af im sh'chata- Yisrael Hu!

Mike Miller said...

Yonah-- why is R' Elyashiv the only one who has to take a role here? How many of us protest police abuse of chareidim? Are we willing to join those who do not belive in "reishit tzmichat geulatenu" (or even "reishis tzmichas geulaseinu")? If so, then we can begin...

Ezzie said...

The "Jewish Hamas"?! Why isn't this a bigger deal?!

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Ezzie: Why would it be a bigger deal? Its only an extension of the police beating up teenage protestor.

Anonymous said...

Or the teenage protestors setting on the police

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

anonymous: "setting on the police" means the teenagers are a Jewish Hamas?

Irina Tsukerman said...

This is such a horrible situation, but it needs to be addressed in a public forum and dealt with immediately, otherwise it can only get worse. On the one hand, settlers should learn to use legal means (the courts) to address their grievances BEFORE it's too late and the police is setting in; on the other hand, the kind of abuse and lack of restraint shown yesterday is absolutely preposterous, and whoever ordered (and I'm sure someone did) should answer for it. This kind of polarization has no place in society.

elchonon said...

Sure the cops were beaten.. they asked for it! they were smashing the crap out of us!!

http://www.stateofjudea.com/coppermine/thumbnails.php?album=4

there are some pix, i need to edit and upload a few hundred more... plus some pix i need to blur faces and delete..

Okee said...

To tehilimzugger: When it comes to something as critical as halacha, Jews do not allow their fear and hatred of others (who themselves may be confused, lost, or brought up differently) interfere with their paskening halacha. And we do not pasken halacha by opinion but by basis, prior rulings, and consultation with competent halacjic athaurities. Your post actually frightened me as much as the terrible incident in Amona.
By the way, it is not even mutar to ask a non-Jew to turn the light on on shabbos...

To the other posts, I certainly do not profess to have any great political plan. But I do appreciate the stress on unity. We are one people, children of one Father, trying to live in our one, small, beautiful land.

jaime said...

Excellent Post. Thank you for writing it.

Elster said...

No, Tehillim, we are all one people. Rabbonim would absolutely disagree with your assertion that it's mutar to ask a secular jew to turn on lights on shabbos. And as much as you may disagree, the fact remains that it's thinking like your which exacerbates the current rift in Eretz Yisrael.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

All - thanks so much for your comments, I hope to write about this more next week. Just got back from EMT'ing a horrible accident -- and don't have the energy to reply to each person individually.

Have a Shabbat Shalom...and may next week be a better one.

Jack's Shack said...

We are DECIDEDLY NOT one people.

And that is decidely the wrong attitude to take. We do better when we stand together then when stand apart.

daat y said...

Standing together needs both sides.

Orange&Black said...

If you want to see one-sided police brutality against non-violent children watch this sickening graphic video.

http://www.landofisrael.info/Video/amona-alimut.wmv

This is Olmert's Rule of Law.

yonah said...

Mike - I wrote: "...haredi leaders like R. Eliashuv..." you responded: "why is R' Elyashiv the only one who has to take a role..."

Clearly I was using him as but a single example of the many who have so much power over their respective flocks sitting in the Beis Medrash or generally either sincerely, or insincerely, being the "Yissachar" of this generation - or so they think. Until the hundreds of thousands of hareidim are swayed by the only people they respect to take the rest of the Jews here seriously and without auto-pilot disdain then we cannot expect the secular to see us an a shining example of what it is to be observant.

Yes, there are some who try - I have hareidi cousins in Ramot and one of them told me about a small organization that works with baalei t'shuva. But that is not what I mean - what I mean is that we need a complete about-face. A consistent, public, resounding rejection of the current method of "disengagement" from the non-hareidim accompanied by proactive outreach, first with others who are observant to really align the plan, and ultimately with anyone who would stay to listen. All the nukes in Dimona won't do us much good as long as the religious camp acts like spurned babies in a nursery who didn't get the toy they wanted.

Chana said...

One of the reasons I rarely say anything about politics is because I so rarely agree with reactions.

Jews are Jews, they are part of our people, they are our nation, and I love them.

That does not mean that when they put themselves in the face of direct danger, we say it's all okay.

"All she had was a deep connection, a real passion for Eretz Yisrael, a love for our reclaimed land -- and a desire to continue settling it. I can't imagine she was throwing rocks...but I can see her crying her eyes out, as the horses and soldiers and policemen brutally beat her friends who were trying to hold on to the land."

You're right. But the land is not- is not- officially ours any longer. And to deliberately go out in the face of danger is just that- dangerous. These people did not expect the extent of the brutality, but they were willing to get hurt. They knew what they were getting into, and they knew they were going against the law.

If this cause is worth that to them, then we should not be the ones crying. And if this brutality was not what they expected, what DID they expect?

Look back at Gush Katif. We saw so many images of Israeli soldiers made into the bad guys, taking the land away, "Jews against Jews," orange stars and all that jazz. They were doing their job.

Here, too, the police and soldiers are doing their job. It was wrong for them to take it to this extreme extent, but you cannot make them out to be monsters. If people refuse to be moved peacefully, what do you want the police to do? What can they do? I DO NOT condone brutality and violence. But I cannot say that I feel for people who deliberately, consciously violate the law.

You make a choice, and you suffer the consequences of your actions...

I know I sound awful and hard-hearted, and perhaps that is what I am.

You wrote-

"The Jews of Amona and their supporters are motivated exclusively by a deep passion and love for Eretz Yisrael."

This is a noble and beautiful thing. But there is also the law, and respect for the law.

And if you transgress the law...what do you want? I condemn brutality and excessive violence. These photos are horrifying.

But the simple action of "Jews against Jews," the whole agenda of "Yehudim lo migaresh Yehudim..."' No. I don't see it. It is the law, it is their job, and it is what they must do...

And if others refuse to accept it, this is their fault and their own choice. And I cannot defend their actions, much as I wish I could.

Chana said...

When I say their actions- I mean those of the people attempting to settle the land....

chardal said...

It is the law, it is their job, and it is what they must do...

This gives me chills. To hear a Jew say this only 60 years after the Holocaust.

There is a higher Law than the law of flesh and blood. That is the Law we respect above all other law.

Chana said...

I could launch into an entire, rational, point-by-point explanation of why what I just said is totally and absolutely different than Nazi Germany under the dictatorship of Hitler.

But I won't.

Because you only hear one thing- that someone has said we have to cooperate with the government, even if we don't like it. And you only think one thing- Hitler! Holocaust!

Dragging Hitler into everything doesn't accomplish anything but showing me how little history many people know and understand. And how willing so many people are to overlook history and to draw similarities that cannot (if you looked at something from an objective point of mind) be drawn.

Of course, objectivity is impossible, if you're a certain kind of Jew.

Happily, I'm not.

daat y said...

What I also find very upsetting is that the 'big jewish blogs in chutz la'aretz hven't even mentioned the amona tragedy(except for you chardal).

chardal said...

chana,

Do you agree or disagree that Torah law should take precedent secular law?

If you agree that a law can be immoral and if it is, it should be resisted, then the whole debate should be about whether this application of the law is moral or not.

Your comments used absolutist terms about the rule of law and that gives me chils. I am not saying that this is completely analogous to Nazi germany but your approach to secular law is too extreme.

So I guess I am a "certain kind of Jew"

chardal said...

What I also find very upsetting is that the 'big jewish blogs in chutz la'aretz hven't even mentioned the amona tragedy(except for you chardal).

I am not sure I count, I am only in chutz LaAretz for another year or so, B"H. And I consider myself more Israeli than anything else.

What is amazing is how the reactions are so different from the US commenters than the Israel ones. You really see how Western modes of thinking are more deeply ingrained in even the frum Jews living in Chu"l

Tehilimzugger said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Libby said...

Chana, since these kids are "breaking the law", I assume that it is correct and wholly righteous to beat these kids again and again with clubs and ride gigantic horses right over them. Why didn't these "police" just shoot at them? They were, after all, breaking the law.

Irina Tsukerman said...

Guys, you're totally misinterpreting what Chana is trying to say. If I understand her (and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!), she's condemning the use of force by the police, but she's saying that what the settlers did was not at all productive, since it was illegal and that they should have expected SOME kind of police interference. She's also implying (if I understand correctly) that in a society where there are legal outlets for grievances, defying the law is not necessarily a heroic thing.

Gee, a Moron! said...

Irina Tsukerman said:

... in a society where there are legal outlets for grievances...
I think a large part of the problem, real or perceived, is that there are few outlets in Israel for airing or redress of grievances.

The press, the courts, the heads of governemt are all seen as left-leaning.

Even when the government has made promises to recompense (i.e. payments to the Gush Katif expellees) it has reneged, surrounded it with red tape, dragged its feet, and simply not functioned.

Those of us who see a risk of our whole values and physical support systems caving in have little to lose and little respect for infractions of the law to protest.

What if Olmert and co. had said we won't destroy the houses today - we'll lay siege to the protesters till they leave from hunger and frustration. The violence came about because it had to be settled this very minute and show who's boss...

tafka PP said...

Chardal, with regard to mentality, you are wrong. Most Israelis would agree with Chana, they just aren't overly represented in the blogosphere and thos of us who are aren't about to pick a fight with some of Jameel's readers.

As I responded the last post, it is disgusting how much the rift is widening- and that was before I read "tehillim" and even more sickening that both sides are exploiting this tragedy to point fingers. Nobody's leadership is blameless here.

Shabbat Shalom

Orange&Black. said...

There is only one side to blame here.

Olmert's.

Olmert instigated this.
Olmert refused any compromises.
Olmert refused to let the settlers remove the houses themselves into Ofra.
Olmert gave the orders to the police to beat up the children.

Only one side is responsible.

Olmert's and those who's ideology he agrees with.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Chana: As its crazy time at the Muqata on Erev Shabbat...with the kids all needing attention, I can't reply now to your comment.

However, I'll have lots to say next week...

Shabbat Shalom.

Jameel

sultan knish said...

if you don't like holocaust comparisons Chana, what about the civil rights movement? what about any protesters anywhere who hold a sitdown or carry out any protest outside the law?

Your statements apply equally well to them.

"These people did not expect the extent of the brutality, but they were willing to get hurt. They knew what they were getting into, and they knew they were going against the law."

"If people refuse to be moved peacefully, what do you want the police to do? What can they do? I DO NOT condone brutality and violence. But I cannot say that I feel for people who deliberately, consciously violate the law."

There are many things the police can do, but that's not what they chose to do. They chose to engage in brutal violence, a violence whose form you cannot defend but which you nevertheless justify. When you refuse to condemn it, you do indeed condone it.

What you are effectively saying is that anytime protesters, regardless of their cause protest not in the framework of the law, the police may do anything to them and not be viewed as wrong because it is 'the law.'

where do you draw the line then? skull fractures, live fire, mass execution? I presume you draw the line somewhere if only out of optimism for human nature and if so then where and why?

"I know I sound awful and hard-hearted, and perhaps that is what I am."

No you are simply a member of a society that has placed following the 'rules' over morality, ethics and any grasp of right and wrong. And the end result of that is Amona or Rodney King or Pinochet or that certain country and era you don't like being brought up in this context whose soldiers declared themselves blameless because they too followed orders and followed the law

but the law and orders are meaningless without the integrity of principles and without moral justification. a law is neither good nor bad by definition, nor is the one who follows it good or bad except in relation to its context. there have been many evil laws and many good laws, the implementation whose outcome is the beating of war heroes, children and civilians alike who are then thrown out of their homes is not a good law, nor are the people who carry it out good and neither are those who defend it

and if those who carry it out are the butchers, those who defend it are happy enough to eat the sausage and try to avoid thinking too hard about how it gets made

Libby said...

You go Knish!!

Tovya @ Zion Report said...

Jameel,

I changed by blog location to a new server... it's now at http://zionreport.com

(Just in case you want to update your blogroll)

MK said...

Sure glad that Chana wasn't at Kent State

Okee said...

The message I hear whenever I hear of something like this recent tragic Amana occurence is that we are truly living "at the end of days". I'm not, so not, saying that the world is about to end, G-d forbid. But the world is twisted, backward. It's like the rain deciding it wants to be dry instead of wet. Jew versus Jew? Israeli policeman versus settler? Those that are supposed to protect inflicting harm? Us against each other? It's all so insane...and what can we do? We can fight for our rights as best we can, and possibly be harmed defending our land. Or we can just sit and do nothing? No, that is no option. So if we cannot fight for what belongs to us, let's take the matter up with a higher authority. If we take the case to G-d, even one small complaint/plea/request/prayer a day, perhaps the upside-down rain will right itself, and we'll live to see happier times.

Anonymous said...

more support for chana.

There is such a thing as the law. Even if you don't like it. If you think the judges are left-leaning, then tough. you live in a democracy. If you want a theocracy, go to Iran or to Boro Park where you can live a "Torah Life" in accordance with whichever twisted mess of Torah you prefer.

As a religious Jew, I was disgusted with the settler movement over Amona. Violence was utterly unacceptable in that situation.

In fact, the settler gang have been way out of control for a long long time. They have preached to their youth how evil anyone is who disagrees with their "Land is more important than G-d"" stance over the last few decades. As their stance has become less popular and more challenged their rhetoric has become more extreme and violent.

It is time that Israeli democracy started dealing with this social problem. It started with legal proceedings. When the settlers ignored these legal and reasonable means then the state, which is the only body allowed to use violence in a democracy, turned to remove the settlers, who were spoiling for a fight anyway, from their illegal positions.

The settler response was a disgrace. They bring the Torah into more disrepute than any chareidi fool who thinks the world is only 6,000 years old.

zsta

Anonymous said...

libby,

you should look in the mirror. The police only used violence when they had to.

The far-right is the one who makes the argument that they were justified in turning to violence when their lifestyle (of racism and thuggery) is being threatened. In fact someone makes it on this thread...

Those of us who see a risk of our whole values and physical support systems caving in have little to lose and little respect for infractions of the law to protest.

sorry, parrot, that the debate is becoming more sharp, but this task is something the left should have taken on a long time ago and now the time has come to stop the madness.
zsta

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

As a religious Jew, I was disgusted with the settler movement over Amona. Violence was utterly unacceptable in that situation.

ZSTA: What exactly disgusted you? I'm anti-violence and didn't think anyone should be throwing rocks. The majority of teenagers there WEREN'T throwing rocks, and most of the kids hurt were in situations where the police charged at them for no reason. This was corroborated by many media people who were there at the time...(see my quote from Roni Daniel posted last week).

What were they doing that was so reprehensible? Part of accepted democratic normative behaviour is non-violent disobedience. For hundreds of teenagers to be sitting on the floor of a building, and then Yasamnikim to go in and start beating up kids is totally unacceptable.

If the Israeli government decides to go up against thousands of teenagers, causing hundreds of injuries, the main onus of responsibility lies on the government FIRST. Are you comprehending the numbers; hundreds of wounded...

I wish you would stop lumping all the demonstrators into one group; as they were far from homogenous.

As for the rule of law -- its unacceptable for the police to "enforce" the law in such a horrible way. The police didn't act in a vaccum; their hatred towards the demonstrators didn't come out of thin air.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Oh...and here's another video.

http://katif.net/pirsom/1.wmv

sultan knish said...

"There is such a thing as the law," says Reb Anonymous and if we don't like it, we can move to Iran, he says.

I don't think you quite understand what democracy is reb anonymous. Democracy means that personal rights are protected. Iran also has the 'law.' Iran's law has it that you can hang 16 year old girls in public. There are many like you in Iran who will proclaim that this is fair since it's the law and anyone who doesn't like it can move to mars or the moon.

law divorced from civil rights is tyranny. You have no interest in law or democracy you don't even know what they mean. What you have is a hatred for the settlers you consider your enemies and a willingness to gloat over children and old man and young girls being beaten

the government does not have a monopoly on violence, it only has a monopoly on legal violence as a last resort, when it abuses this it no longer has a monopoly on legal violence, it merely has a greater share of the illegal violence on its side

you might like to believe that your enemies can be beaten down, history suggests otherwise

sultan knish said...

a lot of video footage going around

http://news.walla.co.il/?w=//852618

http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/3850/852627

http://media.putfile.com/police-brutality-amona-israel-more

Anonymous said...

Jameel, I was disgusted by all the violence.. but I believe that only the state has a legal right to use violence.

You are correct that I should not lump all the settlers into one block. I am particularly disgusted by those who did lob concrete blocks at the cops. It is just not aceptable. The Israeli govt did not "decide to go up against a bunch of kids", rather they enforced a legally taken decision which the settlers were choosing not to follow. Are you suggesting that anyone who doesn't like a law is entitled to take up arms against the government?

And sultan, democracy does not mean that every personal right is protected all the time. A good democracy protects minority rights at the same time as following the will of the majority. I don;t hate settlers, I do have a great need for democratically established laws to be upheld in Israel, even if they are painful, especially for those who have to leave their homes as a result.

I don';t believe enemies should be beaten down. Using violence is a good way of ensuring your opponent maintains hatred for you.. a five year old kid in the playground knows that. But don't think we should ignore some of the insanity that is going on in the far-right these days. And moderate right-wingers do themselves no favours by standing near the crazies.

zsta

sultan knish said...

and now you're changing your position reb anonymous, let me remind you of what you were saying a little while ago

"In fact, the settler gang have been way out of control for a long long time. They have preached to their youth how evil anyone is who disagrees with their "Land is more important than G-d"" stance over the last few decades. As their stance has become less popular and more challenged their rhetoric has become more extreme and violent. It is time that Israeli democracy started dealing with this social problem."

This isn't about the 'law' or 'democracy' for you. This is about a war against the settlers you hate and lambaste with hatefull rhetoric.

Law is premised on an even-handed approach, it is premised on using violence only when there is no other option and using it with restraint. None of those qualifications were met here and it was not within any legal norm except in a banana republic.

the insanity is on the left which is more determined to settle scores against other Jews than deal with Hamas.

Chana said...

Why do you persist in calling him the pejorative "Reb Anonymous" when he has stated he is to be referred to as ZSTA?

sultan knish said...

because he insists on posting as anonymous and anyone can type in some letters after a post

e.g.

XTZY

now are we going to discuss anything substantative or go back and forth as to whether someone posting anonymously is really anonymous

Anonymous said...

is sultan knish your real name????
zsta is for my old blog zeh sefer toldot adam..
you should read the yerushalmi on it...
and the law does not allow you to use violence at all, unless in imminent defense of your life...
finally, i'm happy kill life-threatening hamas-niks, but I'm not happy to call every arab an enemy and thus justify mass slaughter - as some on your part of the political map are prepared to do... mavet la'aravim is not a lefty chant.

zsta

the sabra said...

to zsta and chana and a couple more of you-you say that the police only used violence when they had to. two points because i am trembling too strongly to write more on this-1) they came in beating people and screaming horrible things at us. when girls yelled that they were ready to leave on their own, the police completely ignored them. most of the time at least. and comment number 2)if they were trying to uphold the law, all they had to do was shlep the people out. why did they pull my hair, twist my arms, bend my fingers back, place their chins on my neck, and bang their knuckles into my hand? why all the creative, child-like violence?

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