Anonymous said...
I know you said to wait but... sorry.. You are dealing with two very different cases - Lazy Kid and Concerned kid. You're concerned kid felt unsafe! Did you make the kid go? Do you think the fear was justified? I mean, you're kid is right, on the last tiyul, they WERE shot at and someone DIED. So it turned out ok in the end- Thank G-d... but what if it hadn't? My children are also involved politically and I justify this to people by explaining to them that my children really do have a handle on what is going on, understand the political situation and we support their choice to be involved. Should we not support their (intelligently thought out) choices regardless of whether we agree?
And then, the obvious came soon after:
Regreg23:
Muqata: just wondering...you will probably own up to putting yourself, your wife, and your kids in danger on a daily basis living where you do. Don't get me wrong, if it were up to me,I'd much rather live in somewhere in Yesh(a) then Tel-Aviv, which I hate diligently but what would your answer be to a common left wing question like: "Who gave you the right to endanger your family just because of your political views?
Living in Israel is a mental challenge. When I was recently in the US, the imagery of CNN, the LA Times and NPR made me wonder if I really lived there. When a horrendous suicide bombing attack took place in Netanya, I kept thinking how I would view the attack had I not been living in Israel. Is Israel really a crazy war-zone?
And living in the West Bank? Or the previous settlements in Gaza? Over 5000 missiles struck the Gaza settlements -- shouldn't the parents there have fled with their children? What about a parents responsibility for their children's welfare -- how can a parent's political, ideological or religious view be allowed to "endanger" their children?
Rock of Galilee answered this very succinctly:
People in America asked me the same question when I moved to the Galilee a couple years ago."What gives you the right to put your family's life in danger just because of your political views" I reject the validity of the question.
From the second a baby is born, the parents are making all sorts of choices which could ostensibly be viewed as endangering their child's welfare.
Did the mother have an epidural? Did the mother live in an area with potential health hazards? Did the parents use the absolute best ob/gyn at the best hospital possible, under optimal conditions? Did the parents run a full gamut of genetic tests on the embryo? Was the mother's weight during pregnancy the absolute optimal weight, and not a pound over? Obviously the parents were not exposed to any secondary smoke at any point...
Where do we live? Aren't there dangers lurking everywhere? Are your kids on a leash to prevent them from leaving the house? Are you on their school bus to ensure they are always sitting. Are their seatbelts on your children's schoolbus -- I doubt it. Why not?
When the current "intifada" erupted in Sept 2000, it changed our lives in many ways. We weren't willing to abandon our home despite alot of new dangers thrown at us. There was a point when we wore bulletproof vests in the car...our settlement erected a fence for the first time in its history (why do we need the fence -- we're not the ones causing the problems, fence our neighbors in). Yet, many wonderful aspects of our quality of life remained the same; our youngest children would walk to nursery and kindergarten by themselves; kids could go to the park by themselves, come back from their friends after dark, sleep outside at night in a tent, and many others.
When the intifada didn't stop as quickly as it should have, I showed our kids that there are 2 ways of dealing with every problem; you can be led by the problem, or try to take control of the problem to contain it. I took an EMT course and my children know that I can handle all sorts of medical emergencies. I took specialized driving courses for "driving under extreme conditions", and demonstrated that while the situation wasn't always pleasant, it could be dealt with in a way that didn't result in hysteria and capitulation.
When JoeSettler commented:
I remember one of my Tiyulim with Jameel a few years back in Hebron on Sukkot. Arabs shot at our group near the Maarat Hamachpela (2 women were hit). We all grabbed one of Jameel's kids and ran into the building to watch the show from safety.I was rather scared at the time, and one of my kids didn't want to go back to Hevron for a while...or ride buses. We didn't force the issue, and we didn't force him to continue on our family trips to Hevron. In the end, he resumed coming with us.
The significance and importance of Jews living in their homeland is very important to me -- and we have it very easy. In the turn of the century, Jewish
Wherever I am, my blog turns towards Eretz Yisrael
33 comments:
I think your (long) answer is incomplete.
There are plenty of people that would criticize even someone living in Tel Aviv, claiming that all of Israel is a dangerous war zone. In many ways the level of danger is completely subjective.
Many, many more people are killed in car accidents than by terrorists in Israel.
Does that make every parent who puts his kid in a car is irresponsible?
Or are they only irresponsible they don’t acknowledge the situation and then act accordingly (defensive driving, safety seats, etc.).
How many people have been killed on the Har Eval Tiyul?
Zero
How many to Great Adventures?
More than Zero
Which is the more dangerous place to go?
in amshinov in the 1940s we also felt safe.in new york on September 11 2001 as well
Life is rarely black and white.
Mazal Tov on 10k hits.
People need to remember that Israel is a dangerous place, but so is the world. Not too long ago, I was in the UK and the checked my female mate's bags before entering a public building.
US embassies round the world are protecting themseleves by errected cement blocks around the perimiter to prevent ramraids and the like.
Yes, Israel seems to suffer more than other countries, but do you think the people of London stopped using the underground/bus after 7 July 05? Did the people of Madrid stop using the rail network after 11 March 04? Did people stop going to work in NY after 11 September 01?
Life is dangerous, so keep your eyes open and be aware of the dangers, but don't wrap yourself up on cotton wool and avoid what you want to do in order to protect yourself. Being over protective is detremental to a child too.
Life is too short not to make the most of every oppertunity.
"Where do we live? Aren't there dangers lurking everywhere? Are your kids on a leash to prevent them from leaving the house? Are you on their school bus to ensure they are always sitting. Are their seatbelts on your children's schoolbus -- I doubt it. Why not?"
While this is true, this isn't exactly the same. In this case, the danger is unknown. Sure, bad things happen every day- rape, murder, verbal abuse, etc- but they are not known to happen at school/ the park, necessarily.
Now, if there were a park in your neighborhood where gangs reputedly hang out (there is in mine) wouldn't your parents forbid you to go there? Mine did.
The issue your commentators seem to be having is that you are exposing your children to a known danger while they are exposing theirs to an unknown but possible danger.
Simply from this post, I think it is obvious you love your children. The fact that you didn't force your child to come with you to Hebron after what happened there certainly makes the point.
While you are making a conscious choice that Israel is worth any price- your children alongside you- there are others who could not understand risking death for this, and they too, are right.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that you're both right, but your proof is not so overpowering as to force others to agree with you/ do the same with their children. I don't think you intend it to be, either- you're just defending/explaining what you, as parents, decide to do with your children. Which is your right.
(On the other hand, thanks very much for telling me it was in Shabbos and for your comment on my blog. Much appreciated!)
Similar to what Chana said...
Your answer is unconvincing, even if I agree. You've stated that every place has its dangers, which is true; but that doesn't justify placing your children or yourself in additional, unnecessary danger.
You've avoided the question by answering, "Well, nowhere's really safe." That's true, but that's not the point.
Ezzie: What is "additional, unnecessary danger."
There are accidents all the time at Amusement parks in the USA...alot more fatalities than there are on tiyulim in Israel from terror attacks. Does that mean for the off chance that something might happen (and being surrounded by IDF soldiers) that its not worth it for an amazing (hopefully not once in a lifetime) tiyul to something of great heritage value?
Chana: I don't see a tiyul to Har Eval as a death defying experience - granted there is a minimal risk involved, but that same risk is entailed anytime someone gets on a bus in Israel. The park scenario you presented is quite different than the situation here:
Yes, assume there is a park where gangs have been known to hang out -- but you are going with adults, and an IDF escort with the best training and weaponry around -- do you think its wrong for parents to allow a kid to go to the park? Glad I could help with the gemara lookup, though I found that article very disturbing.
Ifyouwillit & Amshi: Yes, the world is a more dangerous place. Driving to work in Israel is far more dangerous statistically than going on a tiyul to Har Eval.
Jack: If the world were black and white...we woulnd't see any rainbows.
If they can avoid the park- even with all the military backing- I think they should. Why put yourself in danger, even if you have protection, if you can go to another park?
Now, special sites in Hebron, or special places- Me'aras HaMachpeila, and so on and so forth- are of course, different from parks. So if you've got the backing and you desire to go, you can. But there is still the distinction between walking into a place of known danger and one that is unknown.
Jameel, thanks for the email about Chana's blog.. I appreciate it..
Personally I would demand the park be cleaned up and be made safe for children.
Hi Jameel (long time no comment),
First, I'm sure you are aware that there are many halachic sources on this topic - or rather, a very similar one, endangering oneself to "travel" to Israel. See the famous Tosfos in Ketuvot 110b, and the "true" version of R. Chayim Hakohen in the Mordechai.
A passage which has always intrigued me is the very end of the Kuzari, in which the scholar announces that he will be making aliyah, and the king asks him, isn't the journey dangerous? The scholar's response is somewhat difficult, but I understand him to be saying, "endangering myself for the sake of this mitzvah is itself an act of religious devotion, and if I die on the journey, I know that my death will serve as an atonement."
That said, I think it should be obvious to all that Israel is not a dangerous place, that the greater security risks lead to much greater vigilance, and that when a person walks around Israel on a normal day he or she feels completely secure.
That is the difference between Israel, and, say, Iraq.
Congratulations! Here's too many more!
I completely agree with you on this issue; I'll probably wind up living the same way when I have children.
Everything is relative. I remember thinking about the danger of suicide bombers in malls before taking my kids to the last (not now, a year and a half ago) Harry Potter movie.
I decided that the security procedures at the entrance to the mall was enough.
datingmaster: but do you practice safe sex?
Anonymous: I think you've gotten a bit off topic. Why don't you go here instead?
Well done on your 10,000 hits.
I could not disagree with you more, and second Ezzie's remarks.
I think y'all are missing the point.
But to answer the question "Who gave you the right to endanger your family just because of your political views?"
The answer is that first of all, as a parent it is your right to bring your children up as you see fit. The same question can be asked,
"Who gave you the right to limit your children's diet just because of your religious views?" or
"Who gave you the right to teach your children about Creationism instead of evolution just because of your sociological views?"
Parents have the right and obligation to bring their children up in the best way that they see fit. I know parents who are very open and let their children watch movies with unclothed women in it. They feel that it is in their children's best interest to have a well-rounded education and not to raise them in a bubble. I personally disagree with that philosophy, and we stopped watching tv when my daughter was born because I didn't want her exposed to the filth that is commonly showed on it. You can ask who gave me the right to take away a television from a child, when the rest of modern society accepts it as a valid method of babysitting.
The natural rights of parents are to raise their children in the most appropriate way that they know how. If parents feel that their children will gain extra values and will lead a better lifestyle in a certain place and the tradeoff is getting shot at from time to time, no one has the right to tell that parent that he is wrong.
Parrot: Ezzie wrote Your answer is unconvincing, even if I agree. You've stated that every place has its dangers, which is true; but that doesn't justify placing your children or yourself in additional, unnecessary danger.
What's unnecessary danger? Is something mundane as rafting or swimming really neccessary? There are thousands of swimming accidents annually, yet almost everyone sends their kids swimming.
In this case, I was doing the utmost to ensure my children's safety, while still going to a very enjoyable (and important)tiyul -- the IDF asssumed full responsibility for the tiyul's security. This wasn't a rag-tag tiyul with no coordination with the army...it was actually rather well thought out by the IDF.
At what line do you think its "unneccessary danger?"
Going to Hevron to Mearat Hamachpela?
Going to a brit in Gush Etzion?
Going to the Kotel in the Old City?
Working in East Jerusalem?
Living in the Galilee?
Taking a bulletproof bus to Kever Rachel?
Riding a bus in Jerusalem (when you could take a cab?)
Where do you draw the line?
Rock: According to your worldview, at what point are social services supposed to step in?
Jameel, I wasn't in any way accusing you of being an irresponsible parent. I don't know the first thing about parenting/safety and don't claim to. Similarly, I never made assumptions about your tiyul: sounded like a typically well-planned/protected jaunt to somewhere holy, deep inside the shtachim (and I remember such excursions well.)
I was disagreeing - and continue to disagree- with your overall "everywhere is dangerous" justification.
As for where I personally draw the line (which from those options I see is a personal question) my personal safety is not my prime motivating factor as to where I will or will not go, more my beliefs about whether I have a right to be there or not. Similarly, you are free to draw your lines wherever you like, based upon your own ideological motivations- I'm not judging you- or your parenting skills- for that.
Purple Parrot:
Everywhere is dangerous, but I definitely can get by with your statement my personal safety is not my prime motivating factor as to where I will or will not go, more my beliefs about whether I have a right to be there or not.
So even though our beliefs take us in entirely opposite directions, we agree after all :)
I am with Chana and Ezzie on this one - known danger vs. unknown danger. I lived for a time in the West Bank as a single person, but am not sure I would live in Chevron as a married man with children. This is not in any way meant to question your choices or parenting skills, but as much as I can admire you for planting your family where you have and for taking your kids on tiyulim such as you do, I also could not disagree with a parent who would not move there (I am not referring to Israel in general here) or take there children on such tiyulim because of the danger.
I am in agreement with mcaryeh. I have a close friend who lives on a Yishuv. When he told me that he was moving to a settlement in the West Bank I was a little nervous for him and his family, but as I have grown to learn more about their community and those surrounding it, I wouldn't have a problem with family or friends moving to those yishuvs, however, Hevron is quite different. He had told me that he has great respect and envy for those people who live there and are raising their families there. That he would even consider living there but I think he feels that he isn't as deserving with his beliefs to be there. We had a lengthy discussion about this because I believe that despite what your heart and principles are, that once you have a family, it is very selfish and irresponsible to raise your family in a very hostile environment such as Hevron. Or has Hevron changed during my long absence from Israel?
Jameel, I'm outraged with you pointing at my comment as if it were me posing the question. Just for your info. my friend, I'm a dedicated Zionist who has been to most places in Yesha and who'd give his life, if need be, for the safety and wellbeing of the Jewish people. You completely misunderstood my comment.
Be'tikva, Eitan(Regreg23 is the name I post with)
Yea Jameel, you're right!, just last week I took my kids to the 7-11 in South Philly at midnight- we don't worry about the crack dealers on the corner because we know that they're in the "safe" neighborhoods too! After a while, the kids calmed down as they enjoyed their slurpees! I just hope my husband never finds out about this.
Jammeel,
please erase my comment as it is no longer relavant. I fully understand what you were trying to say and agree wity you!
Be'tikva, Eitan.
Well, Hello there Dutch Girl...Slurpees at midnight? I would have thought something more...dairy?
I certainly hope your kids all wore those wooden shoe things, since it gets awfully cold in SouthPhilly during the night.
The big question is: If you were out at midnight with the kids, where was the Dutch Guy?
We'll have to address this mystery next week.
Dutch Man was home drinking his Dutch chocolate. He doesn't get a buzz from slurpees.
Hi Jaime -
You brought up a place very near and dear to my heart; Hevron. If anything, its gotten alot worse since you were here. While I personally would love to live in Hevron, I don't think I could raise my family there. Not even because of the security situation, but because of the built-in clash between the settler kids and the Israeli police.
Its a very complex situation there, and it would be very difficult for me to raise kids there, while teaching them about inherent respect for the law and law enforcement. Its one big challenge living there, and I don't know if I would be able to raise my kids in the manner I would want to.
This isn't criticism of the Hevron parents, just not something I think I could do. (and I have tremendous respect and admiration for them).
MCAryeh: BTW - The muqata is not nearly as intense as Hevron.
Amshinover can vouch for that. All he could keep saying, "What a normal place this is."
I like MCAryeh's addition. I loved going to certain places as a single guy, but would not necessarily go there with my wife (and iyH kids). I also like PP's and your points - I don't think this trip in particular was "unsafe", or that you're an irresponsible parent at all by living in the Muqata (though shmoozing with Arafat's ex-bodyguards might be pushing it). Rather, your implied claim that everywhere is equally dangerous is what's troubling. There are definitely levels of danger, and there are definitely more dangerous activities which a typical person would consider normal to do. Granted, everyone has to decide for themselves what's reasonable; but yours may come closer to a line of what "the normal person" (loosely assumed) would consider 'pushing it'.
So you DO have a line....
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