Tuesday, February 16, 2010

Allegations rock Religious National / Modern Orthodox

What is the difference between the "Chareidi" (Ultra-Orthodox) world and the "Dati" (Religious nationalist and/or Modern Orthodox and/or centrist religious) world?

Strangely, due to this blog, many people have been approaching me lately and discussing it; very passionately.

One said; The Chareidi world has "Kavod HaTorah" (respect for the Torah). No self respecting Chariedi would ever write on a blog post or Chareidi newspaper, an article questioning the Torah leaders of the generation, such as R' Elyashiv. Despite mass non-adherence to some of the halachik rulings of these leaders, such as having internet at home, using a Shabbat elevator, "Chareidim" would never openly criticize them, as you do on your blog... (he was referring to my comments on R' Aviner and Srugim).

Of course, this applies to criticizing their own leaders; there are currently dozens of inter-sect fights going on within the Chareidi world; from Ger to Chabad to Satmar to Shas. If human leaders are above reproach due to "Kavod HaTorah" then I guess I'm not Chareidi.

The reason I bring this background item up, is that yesterday at 8 PM, Israel's Channel 2 TV news dropped a bombshell on the religious community in Israel. One of the religious nationalist leaders, R' Mordechai "Motti" Elon was accused of "implicit sexual misconduct" by an organization called "Takana."

I was driving home when I heard the news via a simultaneous TV broadcast, on IDF radio and many questions came to mind.

Who is the Takana organization? Was this a smear campaign? Is there any truth to this? Overall, the news was very depressing.

The story evolved as follows (its reported the same way on all the news sites...here's the JPost's rendition:
A rabbinical forum dedicated to preventing sexual harassment within the national-religious sector issued an announcement Monday warning the public of prominent national-religious Rabbi Mordechai (Motti) Elon, who allegedly committed “acts in contradiction to the values of sanctity and morals.”

According to Takana, after receiving complaints about Elon’s implicit sexual misconduct, the forum demanded of Elon to end all public activity, step down from any educational and managerial positions and cease conducting one-on-one counseling. The forum, composed of prominent national-religious rabbis and legal experts, refrained from making the affair pubic till this point in time in order to preserve the dignity of the complainants and the alleged perpetrator, the announcement said.

The rabbi had relocated from Jerusalem to the northern Moshava Migdal some four years ago, citing health reasons as the reason for the unexpected move.

However, the forum recently learned that Elon didn’t uphold all of the terms he committed to, the announcement said, and therefore was forced to air the story in order to “safeguard the public and prevent transgression.”
The public statement from Takana is here, on their website. Within an hour, R' Motti Elon issued a statement that this was a case of "extortion"...and a press conference would be forthcoming. On the radio this morning, R' Motti's sister in law, Emuna Elon defended him on the radio:

"Since when does someone go to this forum, whoever they are. Who appointed them, and made them judges over the public? This is a modern country -- and we have respectable police and courts to handle allegations"

I'm sorry, but I find this statement rather cynical and populistic for many reasons.

I looked at the "Takana" organization -- it is perhaps one of the most wide reaching groups that span the spectrum of the religious-nationalist/modern orthodox community in Israel. Its forum is comprised of the following:

R' Yaakov Ariel, R' Aharon Lichtenstein, R' Eitzan Eisman, R' Shlomo ben Eliyahu, R' Baruch Gigi, R' Avi Gisser, R' Tzefanya Drori, Dr. Aviad Cohen, Dr. Yaakov Chaba, R' Elyakim Livanon, R' Benny Lehman, R' David Stav, R' Gabi Kadosh, R' Elyashiv Knohal, R' Zev Karov, R' Shlomo Riskin, Professor Yedidya Stern, R' Yuval Sherlo, R' Yehoshua Shapira.

Mrs. Efrat Brom, Rabbanit Yaffa Gisser, Mrs. Debby Gross, Rabbanit Chana Henkin, Eilat Weider Cohen,Dr. Shulamit Lehman, Mrs. Tami Samet, Rabbanit Malka Petrokovsky, Rabbanit Gila Rosen, Attorney Dorit Rosenfeld, Rabbanit Yehudit Shilat, Attorney Riki Shapira.

This forum is far from being monolithic in outlook and hashkafa; they are so varied that to get them all to agree on a single issue would imply lack of a personal or political vendetta against anyone.

Does Emuna Elon really think that her brother in law would be best served by the accusers going straight to the police (and the media)? This forum seems to have tried to settle the matter as quietly as possible, yet when the agreement was not upheld, the Takana forum issued their statement.

Do Benny and Emuna Elon really have full faith in Israel's legal system? Their niece, Margalit Har-Shefi was tormented by Israel's legal system, charged with failure to report the intentions of Yigal Amir's plot to kill PM Yitzchak Rabin. She was tried, found guilty, served 6 months of jail time, is not allowed to practice law due to the crime she was accused of, and she has been maligned and outcast by Israel's society. All of this, despite the head of the Shin Bet admitting years later, "Har-Shefi did not know that Yigal Amir wanted to murder the Prime Minister," MK Ayalon said. "I know this from intelligence and was head of the intelligence agency." I don't think that Emuna and Benny honestly put their full faith in the system.

So what's the bottom line?

I don't put my trust in the police, or Israel's judiciary. I don't put my trust is a Bet Din either.

Maybe the best we can hope for is a large pluralistic group of respected rabbanim, lawyers, professional and Jewish leaders.

There are no guarantees, but everything else has failed so far. Maybe this Takana organization is a good first step...and as they indicated, they went public when there was no alternative.

This is far better than the Chareidi world which hushes things up, or the Lanner bet-din which also refused to act.

In both of these cases, only going to the police helped. I wonder if the same should have been the case here.

Updates as this story unfolds...

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Jeremy said...

According to YNet, not only are those big names part of the organization, but they dealt with this specific matter themselves, including-

הרב יעקב אריאל והרב אהרן ליכטנשטיין, ממנהיגי הציונות הדתית. חברים נוספים שדנו בתיק: הרב יהושע שפירא, הרב אליקים לבנון, הרב אבי גיסר, הרב יובל שרלו והמשפטן פרופ' ידידיה שטרן – סגן נשיא המכון הישראלי לדמוקרטיה.


This is just sad. Whoever's right, and however it turns out.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Jeremy: Yes, its extremely sad.

However, whats even more distressing is the talkbacks in the YNET article.

Yes, R' Elon has done some amazing educational things -- but that's irrelevant to the charges.

No, this isn't some "conspiracy" by rabbis who wanted to "put R' Elon in his place" because they were afraid he was getting "too popular."

I wonder what R' Motti Elon will say at the press conference today.

Commenter Abbi said...

This is a very very murky story. According to R' Sherlo in YNET, the forum takes on cases that wouldn't merit a full police investigation and trial, or have already been investigated and the accuser hasn't received the answer he/she liked. http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3849752,00.html
, "אבל בכל מה שקשור למדיניות הפורום חשוב שיהיה ברור שבכל מה שניתן להוציא למשטרה או לפרקליטות אנחנו לא נוגעים". לדבריו, הוא וחבריו מעודדים את הפונים אליהם להגיש תלונה מסודרת ולטפל בכל מקרה בכלים החוקיים המקובלים, ורק כשהם מתעקשים שלא לעשות כן, כשמדובר במעשים לא פליליים או כשכבר חלה התיישנות – הפורום נכנס לפעולה.

So, basically, they are meting out their own justice on an issue they are positive is not criminal. So it's worth destroying a man's life for an event that they are positive is not criminal? I'm sorry, I don't accept that, no matter how great these names are.

The only accusations I've heard so far is for sexual harassment. If I'm wrong, please correct me.What does harrassment mean? A one time event? An ongoing series of events?

I will fully admit I'm biased- R' Elon was our mesader kedushin and our neighbor for four years. Our kids went to gan together and I felt very close to his wife and family. I don't know, I just don't see it.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Abbi: I agree with you the story is very murky....I assume it's that way because the Takana forum wanted to save R' Elon's name -- not besmirch it publicly.

This case as done in conjunction with the State Attorney General. (Yoetz mishpati lamemshela).

What possible reason would these people have to ruin R' Elon's name?

The statement from Takana stated it was more than one event, and multiple people complained.

I'd love for this to be a misunderstanding -- we're big fans of R' Elon. I have his "Techelet Mordechai" sefarim at home.

Yet I can't for the life me of think of a logical reason to explain misconduct/a conspiracy on behalf of the Takana organization.

Now, how about you answer this question: Do you think parents should go to the police or something like "Takana" with serious abuse allegations...when it comes to leaders of R' Elon's caliber? As a parent, member of the community, etc.

westbankmama said...

Thanks for posting this. You are right in that the make-up of Takana is so broad - in terms of outlook - that it makes me believe that there is truth to their allegations. I also think they did the right thing - in terms of protecting the public, by insisting that he stay away from personal counseling, etc., even if the people bringing charges didn't go to the police.

It is sad but true that even people who do many good things (teaching Torah, raising tzedakah, etc.) can have problems with their yetzer hara.

jonathan becker said...

"If human leaders are above reproach due to "Kavod HaTorah" then I guess I'm not Chareidi."

well, why don't you just paint a target on your back? i know someone who does very nice silkscreening...

sorry for the snark, it comes natural after so many scandals of this nature. what i'm curious about: if "takana" is so concerned about the kavod of the rav and the kavod of the torah ad k'dai kach that they'd hush the thing up for 3 years, why the sudden decision to go public over the seeming triviality (in comparison) of r. elon's "breaking the terms of his 'parol'"?

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

WBM: This was very difficult to post. My wife mentioned to me last night, of other instances where a list of prominent rabbanim, made accusations of "distorting Torah" against another Rabbi.

Why should I disbelieve them in that case, and not in this case?

I admit, that threw me for a while, till I came to the conclusion that a wide range of opinions from the spectrum is key, which is why I give more credence to this particular case.

On the other hand, if Takana is wrong, and all these allegations are baseless, then not only will I post a huge blog apology (and keep it on the blog permanently on the top of the sidebar) -- but the entire staff of Takana will need to remove themselves from public service.

Anyone heard anything from the press conference? (which a7 is calling a "shiur"?)

jonathan becker said...

"Do you think parents should go to the police or something like "Takana" with serious abuse allegations...when it comes to leaders of R' Elon's caliber?"

i wouldn't go to the israeli police to ask for directions. but in terms of the seriousness of the alleged crime vis-a-vis the power and influence of the accused- ada raba.

Anonymous said...

haredi instances of abuse have been discussed numerous times. I don't see why when it comes up in the Dati Leumi community you still need to throw it back onto the haredim and add a line against how bad they are.

We know the haredim are susceptible to these things just like any other community, and now you need to understand the dati Leumi are as well. No need to start saying at least we are better than them. deal with this situation.

annie said...

As far as I am aware, in an announcement (was that the press conference?)R' Elon said he was not going to go into the matter, and preferred to keep quiet in order not to make more chilul Hashem.

See Ynet: http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3849918,00.html

I'm not sure how that answers any of our questions.

It's a terrible thing, whether it turns out to be true or not. Mud sticks, no matter what the outcome.

Commenter Abbi said...


This article expresses my feelings perfectly.

To answer your question, Jameel serious abuse/rape allegations need to go straight to the police. (The charges in this case are sexual harassment, NOT sexual abuse.) True punishment and justice can only happen when you go through the legal system. I'm sure there are many cases where the police have messed up. That doesn't negate the fact that the only way to deal with truly dangerous people is to go through the legal system.

If you think R' Elon is really guilty, why was this "punishment" enough? Wouldn't you want to see him behind bars, so he can't hurt other students? What good is it just to send him "up north"? There are no students up there? Does Takana have a surveillance camera on him?

I'm not even sure that sexual harassment should be prosecuted in this way. I just realized last night, talking to my mom, that I was probably sexually harassed by a fifth grade rebbi who liked to put me on his lap during recess. I hadn't thought much of it at the time nor through my entire growing up, so I'd hardly call myself abused, and only last night did it occur to me that today I could have probably sued him for his behavior.

I was constantly sexually harassed on the subway going to and from high school. It was gross, but not necessarily something I would pursue in court. I understand it's different with a teacher, which is why it's very important to have a PROPER investigation by people who know how to investigate these things. The names on this council are very impressive, but, like the author of this oped, i don't see anyone experienced in police investigation.

I think some measure of perspective is needed.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Anonymous: This problem happens in every community -- secular, dati, and chareidi. I don't think my point had anything to do with it NOT happening in the dati community -- but rather how the community deals with harassment/abuse issues.

The Chareidi community overall would rather not go to the police. There are dozens of instances of this happening.

The Dati Leumi community is just as bad -- the question is how do they deal with it. In previous cases, they did the exact same thing as the Chareidi community.

This isn't about good vs. bad -- its about how a community deal with these issues which unfortunately happens in every community.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Abbi: Do *I* think that R' Elon is guilty? I have no way of knowing, except for the amorphous warning publicized by the Takana organization.

As I wrote previously -- I would definitely prefer for him not to be guilty.

If you think R' Elon is really guilty, why was this "punishment" enough? Wouldn't you want to see him behind bars, so he can't hurt other students? What good is it just to send him "up north"? There are no students up there? Does Takana have a surveillance camera on him?

I have no clue what he is being charged with. Are the Takana people responsible enough? Maybe. Are they discreet enough? More than the Police, that is for sure. Anything going to the Israeli police is automatically "leaked" to the media.

However, you are wrong about harassment. It is definitely most a crime, as defined by Israel's lawmakers. Here's a good summary of it.

Let's take Baruch Lanner as an example -- the bet din that examined the allegations against him hushed up his behavior...till he was later indicted for sexual abuse years later.

Perhaps the police are the best way to go about this, but you would lose the aspect of trying to keep this "quieter."

As I think was obvious from my posting, my feelings are mixed on this issue.

I don't want to see R' Motti Elon tarred and feathered. Heck, I'd like for him to be totally cleared.

Yet as I wrote -- the Takana organization made some very serious allegations. If they are wrong -- the damage they have done to R' Elon's name is unforgivable.

If they are right, then we're all in trouble.

The most troubling thing I've read so far is that the women from Kolech have resigned from Takana -- because on such a sensationalist press release, they expected to have been consulted with prior to its release. Instead (they claim), only the 10 involved in the direct forum knew about it and released it for publication -- when it should have been discussed (IMHO) with the entire forum.

tafka pp said...

I gather that Takana was set up SPECIFICALLY as a forum which would only involve the police at the last minute: I understand that the idea behind it was to be able to responsibly acknowledge sexual abuse in the dati community in a non-sensationalist manner- above all, through providing a religious response to crimes like rape, incest and harrasment (which, for the record, is also illegal) that occur within the community, and deal with prevention as well as "cure" (- ie get the Rabbinic names behind a campaign to educate youth and raise awareness.)

Very important and reputable organization. Which to my mind means that something serious must be afoot with this particular story if they're looking to go to the press, being as their noted discretion underpins their activities.

tafka pp said...

A note re sexual harrasment- as Jameel pointed out, it is indeed a crime and a cause of severe trauma and distress to many women (and men) who are subject to it, whatever it's nature.

Further, there is no justification as to why anyone should accept being harrassed, or discriminated against, due to their gender- the legal systems in most progressive countries around the world have acknowledged this fact in full and as such have made it punishable by law.

westbankmama said...

Jameel - I know exactly what you are referring to and I also hesitated. But, as you said, the people making "allegations" against R. Elon are from a huge spectrum of viewpoints. And, R. Elon did "disappear" from his previous community and went "out of sight" for quite some time - which says to me that he had something to hide. The other Rabbi that we are talking about tried to fight the problem head-on, and did not drop out of sight, and is continuing in his position and doing well.

Commenter Abbi said...

I have no clue what he is being charged with. Are the Takana people responsible enough? Maybe. Are they discreet enough? More than the Police, that is for sure. Anything going to the Israeli police is automatically "leaked" to the media.

So if we have no clue what he's being charged with, why is he being punished without a trial and conviction?

Why is it responsible or discreet to publicize an amorphous press release that includes no details and is not the result of an official legal and criminal investigation?

If he has committed a crime, than bring his file to the police and indict him. If not, I'm not sure what the entire point of this exercise is.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Abbi: So if we have no clue what he's being charged with, why is he being punished without a trial and conviction?

Why is it responsible or discreet to publicize an amorphous press release that includes no details and is not the result of an official legal and criminal investigation?

Today, Emuna Elon said on the radio that R' Motti was banished to up north by this forum. Why would R' Motti have listened to them in the first place? Was there extortion going on as was announced yesterday?

Why would R' Motti have accepted any punishment from this group if everything is 100% ok?

Why is it responsible or discreet to publicize an amorphous press release that includes no details and is not the result of an official legal and criminal investigation? I'm not defending the organization -- perhaps the allegations are so serious, they thought it was best to keep the details amorphous?

They are having an emergency meeting tonight -- and I assume more details will emerge tonight/tomorrow.

If he has committed a crime, than bring his file to the police and indict him. If not, I'm not sure what the entire point of this exercise is.

Again, I assume that both sides originally wanted to arrive at a quiet solution. Assuming both sides agreed, then that may not have been the worst possible outcome.

The fact that Takana released their statement must have come from some trigger.

I can understand that pain you must feel from all this (and believe me, probably 99% of the dati leumi community feels the same way).

No one wants any of this to have happened...

Commenter Abbi said...

I remember when he left J-m. It was after a year where he was in the hospital a few times with some serious health problems (an ambulance came to the house once). His wife said they were going for a shnat shabbaton up north to get away, which is perfectly reasonable for a high profile, overworked rabbi. Obviously, I don't know what she knew or didn't know. I just don't think it's so simple as "If he ran he must have something to hide." Many people who are guilty still fight head on.

Anonymous said...

Since you mentioned srugim.
6 episodes and it was not blogged about,
Maybe when someone gets a chance?

Mike said...

I would like to point out that you display a double standard. The Takanah organization "covered up" Alon's abuse for years and allowed him to function as a Rabbi in a different community.

Kolko was similarly under supervision for years.

Seems the only difference between them is that the Charedi Rabbis got Kolko under control and he got arrested anyways.

Many people who are guilty fight head on, and many who are not guilty find it less embarrassing not to fight.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Mike: Actually, Lurker agrees with you in the post above this.

Though, the TAKANA organization instituted strict rules for R' Elon. As soon as they rules were not adhered to, they publicized their statement. I suggest you read the shiur by R' Aharon Lichtenstein in the top post (about the death threat against him)

Mike said...


I was only pointing to the double standard. I don't think Takana did the wrong thing. I think those dealing with Kolko were in a different era when people of all communities had a hard time believing these things happen. I don't think you'd see charedi groups putting this "under the rug" either.

William Dwek said...

When ‘dayanim’ and ‘rabbis’ use the Torah for their own power and commercial profit, this is the behaviour of a swine i.e. a Pig.

No other ‘rabbi’ will ever act against another ‘rabbi’ - even when he knows his colleague is clearly desecrating the Torah. Each rabbi is only worried about losing his own position.

Therefore, the ‘rabbi’ and ‘dayan’ will never effect justice. And he will never truly stand for the Torah or the Honour of Hashem. His pocket will always prevail.

The Torah must never be used for commercial gain and profit. Am Yisrael can only be lead by those who have the necessary love and respect of Hashem and the Torah.

William Dwek said...

1. The ‘dayan’ and ‘rabbi’ may use lies. They turn the innocent into the guilty, and the guilty, become the innocent. They will not hesitate to tell lies in the Synagogue.

2. The ‘dayan’ and ‘rabbi’ may steal. They steal and siphon off money for themselves, from the community and individuals.

3. The ‘dayan’ and ‘rabbi’ may shame a Jew in public, even repeatedly. This is one of the most vile acts of murder in Jewish law – and they know this.

4. The ‘dayan’ and ‘rabbi’ will not hesitate to use Lashon Hara - the ‘Evil Tongue’ - to suit his own ends. Slander and gossip. This too, is one of the worst acts of murder in Jewish Law. Their slander is never challenged by the community, because they hold positions of power. And the slander may begin with the Rebbetzin herself.

5. The ‘dayanim’ and ‘rabbis’ worship idols and other gods. Their only god is Money. Especially the ‘Dayanim’ – the ‘Judges’ who sit on a Beit Din. They only care about their high incomes and retirement packages. They have little or no love for the Torah or Hashem.

In the case of Lubavitch/Chabad, all their rabbis are carrying out a form of Avodah Zarah – strange worship. They are using mediation and intercession. This is completely forbidden, and against the Torah. We are only allowed to pray to Hashem, directly ourselves.

6. When the NAME of Hashem has been taken in Vain – repeatedly - by reshaim, the ‘rabbi’ will turn a deaf ear and blind eye to the


This is the abhorrent behaviour of a Pig.

This is an extremely severe and dangerous situation.

There is NO forgiveness for this evil sin and aveirah.

7. The ‘dayan’ and ‘rabbi’ may also offer large bribes, tell lies and bring False Witnesses – when he in fact has committed the crime. These are heinous acts of the most despicable kind. This is especially vile when the ‘dayan’ is sitting on a ‘Bet Din.’

8. The ‘rabbi’ may commit adultery. And when he gets divorced, he may spread slander about his own ex-wife, blackening her name – when in fact he was at fault.

9. The ‘dayan’ and ‘rabbi’ may also desecrate Shabbat – if it suits him. He will use physical violence to assault another Jew or Jewess at any time. This evil and venomous behaviour is 100% against the Torah.

William Dwek said...

The Swine Flu is common in PIGS.

This is a clear indication that it is the Dayanim – ‘Judges’ - and ‘Rabbis’ of today who are the PIGS and swines.

They twist and use the Torah for their own power and commercial benefit.

They are corrupt. And they are interested in only one thing:


Not the Torah.

Eliyahoo William Dwek said...

A further word of advice regarding those who masquerade as a ‘dayan’ ‘rabbi’ or false ‘mekubal’:

1. These men may knowingly and willingly, deliberately deceive a Jew or Jewess. e.g. in the area of shidduchim, or offering to perform a ‘pidyon nefesh’.

This abhorrent and deceptive behaviour has caused tremendous harm to people who are innocent and trusting.

2. Do not ever ‘kiss the hands’ of these men (which they might offer to you in public).

3. And do not be duped into queuing and waiting, to see them for their ‘brachot’ (‘blessings’). They peddle ‘brachot’ purely for their own selfish gratification and ‘kavod’ (‘honour’).

Their duplicitous behaviour is nothing short of deception and cunning. In short they are abhorant and causing so much harm to amm israel. They prey on the vulnerable, and those who are naïve, unsuspecting and trusting of these pedlars.

Eliyahoo William Dwek said...

Any man who chooses to be a ‘rabbi’ (‘true teacher’ of Torah) or a ‘dayan’ (‘judge’), or a ‘mekubal’ (‘kabbalist’) should be doing so Voluntarily. Out of his pure love for Hashem and the Torah. And his Ahavat Yisrael.

If he refuses to do community work voluntarily, and wants and accepts payment for everything he does, such a man should not be leading a community. He should get a job and earn a living. He can collect milk bottles or clean the windows. That is what is called ‘earning a living’.

Torah is learned, studied and taught: out of Love. Voluntarily. But the ‘rabbis’ have turned the Torah into their ‘Profession’, from which they earn money.

We are commanded in the Shema to:
‘LOVE Hashem, your G-d, WITH ALL YOUR HEART, and with all your soul and with all your might.’

‘VE’AHAVTA et Hashem Elokecha BECHOL LEVAVECHA uvechol nafshecha uvechol meodecha.’ (Devarim, Vaethanan, 6:4-5)

Is the ordinary man or woman PAID to pray to Hashem, or to say some words of Torah? No. Has veshalom! But the rabbis are. These men can give ‘lovely’ shiurim that they have rehearsed. But they would not give a shiur without being paid for it.

The true hachamim and rabbis of old, all actually worked at proper jobs and professions.

Wake up! Even a little child could have worked this out. These salaried men can never truly stand for the Torah, because in a case of conflict between a correct course of action according to the Torah, and the rabbi or rav’s pocket – his pocket and position will always prevail.

Pirkei Avot: (2:2)
“Raban Gamliel beno shel Rabi Yehuda HaNassi omer: yafeh talmud Torah im derech eretz, sheyegiat shenaihem mashkachat avon. Vechol Torah she’ein imah melacha sofa betailah ve’goreret avon. Vechol haoskim im hatzibbur yiheyu imahem leShem Shamayim……”

“Rabban Gamliel, the son of Rabi Yehuda HaNassi, said: It is good to combine Torah study with a worldly occupation, for working at them both drives sin from the mind. All Torah without an occupation will in the end fail and lead to sin. And let all who work for the community do so for the sake of Heaven………”

Kamagra said...

they are meting out their own justice on an issue they are positive is not criminal. So it's worth destroying a man's life for an event that they are positive is not criminal?

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